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US Presidential Debates 2004

Brondbyfan

Senior Squad
Originally posted by Elder
Sampling error in favor of Kerry.

What does that even mean?

First video: Kerry thinks the world is better off with Hussein captured. Doesn't mean Bush did it the right way but chasing the inspectors out of Iraq, by eschewing international cooperation, by going to war without a plan for what to do afterwards. Where's the flip-flop? The world would be better off with Kim Jong Il captured, no doubt about that. Doesn't mean it's necessarily worth the cost America would take by doing it alone.

Video 2: Kerry thinks if you're going to issue a preemptive attack, it needs to be supported by facts, facts that can convice your countrymen (and notice he said countrymen first) and the rest of the world that what you did is right, and that you exhausted diplomatic efforts before you sent people to die. That's international law. Where's the flip-flop?

He did vote for the $87 billion dollars in a way that would roll back the failed tax cuts for the wealthiest people. He voted against the $87 billion that would simply tack on more money to the already colossal debt Bush has inflicted on this country and our future. That's fiscal responsibility.

The video also feebly takes a quote out of context, acting as if Kerry saying "the president made a mistake in invading Iraq" referred to the act of invading Iraq, rather than the mistakes he's made in executing that invasion.

Another example of extreme dishonesty is when they equate the fact that Bush would have done everything the exact same way, including rebuffing international cooperation and going without a plan for post-war Iraq, knowing there are no WMDs, with Kerry saying he would still have voted for authorization of force as a last resort and would have handled that authority very, very differently. That's doesn't even make any sense.

It's also a lie when they claim Kerry flip-flopped by saying both "Saddam was a threat" and that he did not pose an "imminent threat to our security." I think even a second grader can tell the difference between "threat" and "imminent threat" Elder, I don't know why you can't.

I think a second grader could also understand that it is 100% percent consistent to say Saddam should not have WMDs, but that Bush saying there are WMDs is not evidence. Additionally, it's pitiful that they'd present the quote where Kerry says he doesn't know what will turn up in Iraq, considering he said that almost a year ago, and it was taken out of context anyway as you already knew Elder from the other thread thanks to Solo Inter.

I was actually stunned at the end that this poorly executed, profoundly dishonest hogwash was produced by the Republican National Committee. What a black eye for the right.

I will deal with the other video later, don't have time at the moment.

Elder, you're sacrificing your dignity and looking very unintelligent by simply reciting indefensible lies from the right. You need to start showing some skepticism with regard to what you are fed by Bush.
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by Brondbyfan
What does that even mean?

First video: Kerry thinks the world is better off with Hussein captured. Doesn't mean Bush did it the right way but chasing the inspectors out of Iraq, by eschewing international cooperation, by going to war without a plan for what to do afterwards. Where's the flip-flop? The world would be better off with Kim Jong Il captured, no doubt about that. Doesn't mean it's necessarily worth the cost America would take by doing it alone.

Video 2: Kerry thinks if you're going to issue a preemptive attack, it needs to be supported by facts, facts that can convice your countrymen (and notice he said countrymen first) and the rest of the world that what you did is right, and that you exhausted diplomatic efforts before you sent people to die. That's international law. Where's the flip-flop?

He did vote for the $87 billion dollars in a way that would roll back the failed tax cuts for the wealthiest people. He voted against the $87 billion that would simply tack on more money to the already colossal debt Bush has inflicted on this country and our future. That's fiscal responsibility.

The video also feebly takes a quote out of context, acting as if Kerry saying "the president made a mistake in invading Iraq" referred to the act of invading Iraq, rather than the mistakes he's made in executing that invasion.

Another example of extreme dishonesty is when they equate the fact that Bush would have done everything the exact same way, including rebuffing international cooperation and going without a plan for post-war Iraq, knowing there are no WMDs, with Kerry saying he would still have voted for authorization of force as a last resort and would have handled that authority very, very differently. That's doesn't even make any sense.

It's also a lie when they claim Kerry flip-flopped by saying both "Saddam was a threat" and that he did not pose an "imminent threat to our security." I think even a second grader can tell the difference between "threat" and "imminent threat" Elder, I don't know why you can't.

I think a second grader could also understand that it is 100% percent consistent to say Saddam should not have WMDs, but that Bush saying there are WMDs is not evidence. Additionally, it's pitiful that they'd present the quote where Kerry says he doesn't know what will turn up in Iraq, considering he said that almost a year ago, and it was taken out of context anyway as you already knew Elder from the other thread thanks to Solo Inter.

I was actually stunned at the end that this poorly executed, profoundly dishonest hogwash was produced by the Republican National Committee. What a black eye for the right.

I will deal with the other video later, don't have time at the moment.

Elder, you're sacrificing your dignity and looking very unintelligent by simply reciting indefensible lies from the right. You need to start showing some skepticism with regard to what you are fed by Bush.

In response to video 2: Kerry voted for the war... don't you understand that? Nothing he says against Bush is valid because he voted for the same war using the same intelligence.

You also don't vote to support troops by saying that tax cuts should be rolled back. Do you really think that's going to fly with the American public? Do you think the families of those soldiers say to themselves in the morning, "Wow, I am so happy Kerry was trying to be fiscally responsible while voting against funding my kid, wife, son, daughter, etc...." Come on...

Bush went to the UN. Deny it all you want, but when France, Germany and Russia don't want to help in a war because they would lose huge financial connections with the country being invaded, it doesn't mean "international cooperation" has failed.

*NOTE* Which brave country is now doing loads of business with Iran? Answer... Germany.

As for the imminent threat or threat part... what part of "Kerry gave Bush a blank check to invade Iraq by voting for the war" don't you understand?

You know what I just realized? Nothing Kerry says actually means anything at this point. He can dance around like the fairy he is, spreading his pixie dust magic, but he STILL VOTED FOR THE WAR! How can you support someone who voted for the war in the first place?

PS. Those videos are in Kerry's words. They are not made up, they are exact words and statements from Kerry. How can you defend the man? How can you vote him?? I can't bring myself to vote for Bush because I don't agree with him on many issues, so how can you vote for Kerry, who voted for the war?!?!

Sellout
 

Elder

Starting XI
Brondby, do you know what sampling error is?

Do some readig on how people get the results they want out of polls, it's quite interesting. Polling more democrats as opposed to republicans is one way.

Corporations love to do it... like when the study about Quaker Oats being good for you came out... paid for entirely by the Quaker Oats company!



:confused:
 
V

Virgo

Guest
ever thought that maybe a lot of people will vote for Kerry because he wants that piece of sh*t out of the presidency?

If you can twist the polls you can twist them as you want, so your logic makes no sense. If they want a side to win they don't need to interview more democrats than republicans to get the results their way, they just have to make them up.

Anyway the numbers are there, do the math if you think the poll is biased. I'm not in the mood for math but if you take off the democrats in excess and level it with the republicans, Kerry would still be on top.

Funny how we don't see you complain when a poll giving a big advantage to Bush came out one or two weeks ago.
 

Vagegast

Banned for Life [He likes P. Diddy]
This is the sampling error of the Newsweek poll of Sept. 11:

391 Republicans (plus or minus 6)
300 Democrats (plus or minus 7)
270 Independents (plus or minus 7)

Doesn't that cancel out both polls? Other polls:

Newsweek 47-45 (for Kerry)
LA Times 49-47 (for Kerry).
Gallup 49-49.


All within margin of error.
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by Vagegast
This is the sampling error of the Newsweek poll of Sept. 11:

391 Republicans (plus or minus 6)
300 Democrats (plus or minus 7)
270 Independents (plus or minus 7)

Doesn't that cancel out both polls? Other polls:

Newsweek 47-45 (for Kerry)
LA Times 49-47 (for Kerry).
Gallup 49-49.





All within margin of error.



That's a big gap too and I wouldn't be very comfortable with it either.

You really have to pay attention to the polls though in regards to who they are measuring. If it's registered voters, it's usualy pretty close... if it's "likely voters" Bush is usually ahead.
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by Virgo
ever thought that maybe a lot of people will vote for Kerry because he wants that piece of sh*t out of the presidency?

If you can twist the polls you can twist them as you want, so your logic makes no sense. If they want a side to win they don't need to interview more democrats than republicans to get the results their way, they just have to make them up.

Anyway the numbers are there, do the math if you think the poll is biased. I'm not in the mood for math but if you take off the democrats in excess and level it with the republicans, Kerry would still be on top.

Funny how we don't see you complain when a poll giving a big advantage to Bush came out one or two weeks ago.

I wish we had a poll on how many people love topless streakers!

:rockman:
 

Brondbyfan

Senior Squad
Funny how we don't see you complain when a poll giving a big advantage to Bush came out one or two weeks ago.

Part of the reason those polls were so heavily in favor of Bush was because they oversampled Republicans. They used more Republicans than Democrats despite the fact that there are more Democrats than Republicans. Now that polls are weighted in line with reality, more reasonable results are coming up.

In response to video 2: Kerry voted for the war... don't you understand that? Nothing he says against Bush is valid because he voted for the same war using the same intelligence.

Well, there's a couple of lies. Your first lie: same war. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to explain this to you, but I'm not going to let you turn a lie into truth just because you repeat it often enough, so here we go again. Kerry voted for authorization of force in the event that peaceful means were exhausted and not adequate to protect the security of the United States, that diplomatic means were exhausted and inadequate to enforce UN resolutions, and that attacking Iraq was part of fighting terrorism, including fighting those terrorists responsible for 9/11. Again, I didn't support this resolution. I don't think the Congress can give away their Constitutional duty to declare war, and I think it's a dangerous encroachment on the principle of checks and balances. I also knew full well Bush had always planned to invade Iraq and that odds were good he would do it without meeting any of those conditions. But he didn't vote for this war.

Your second lie: Kerry voted for the same war. Kerry has often said he would not have fought the war the way Bush did. I believe him, because I don't think anyone sane would have fought the war the same way Bush did. I do not believe Kerry would have shunned the world like Bush did. Kerry wouldn't have tried to fight the war "on the cheap" the way Bush did. Kerry would have sent out troops with adequate equipment because he wouldn't have crushed the government's revenue with foolish and failed tax cuts. Kerry would have had a plan for post-war Iraq.

PS. Those videos are in Kerry's words. They are not made up, they are exact words and statements from Kerry. How can you defend the man? How can you vote him?? I can't bring myself to vote for Bush because I don't agree with him on many issues, so how can you vote for Kerry, who voted for the war?!?!

Sellout

So what if they are Kerry's words? How does that change the fact that none of the quotes they used demonstrate flip-flopping? Does the fact that they pieced together Kerry videos change the fact that "threat" and "imminent threat" are not even remotely the same thing? Certainly you must admit that they are not, and that it's incredibly dishonest to claim they are, not to mention the contempt for the intelligence of the American people it shows.

Also, I like how you couldn't even make it a full post without tacking a personal insult on the end.
 

Brondbyfan

Senior Squad
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by Brondbyfan
Part of the reason those polls were so heavily in favor of Bush was because they oversampled Republicans. They used more Republicans than Democrats despite the fact that there are more Democrats than Republicans. Now that polls are weighted in line with reality, more reasonable results are coming up.



Well, there's a couple of lies. Your first lie: same war. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to explain this to you, but I'm not going to let you turn a lie into truth just because you repeat it often enough, so here we go again. Kerry voted for authorization of force in the event that peaceful means were exhausted and not adequate to protect the security of the United States, that diplomatic means were exhausted and inadequate to enforce UN resolutions, and that attacking Iraq was part of fighting terrorism, including fighting those terrorists responsible for 9/11. Again, I didn't support this resolution. I don't think the Congress can give away their Constitutional duty to declare war, and I think it's a dangerous encroachment on the principle of checks and balances. I also knew full well Bush had always planned to invade Iraq and that odds were good he would do it without meeting any of those conditions. But he didn't vote for this war.

Your second lie: Kerry voted for the same war. Kerry has often said he would not have fought the war the way Bush did. I believe him, because I don't think anyone sane would have fought the war the same way Bush did. I do not believe Kerry would have shunned the world like Bush did. Kerry wouldn't have tried to fight the war "on the cheap" the way Bush did. Kerry would have sent out troops with adequate equipment because he wouldn't have crushed the government's revenue with foolish and failed tax cuts. Kerry would have had a plan for post-war Iraq.



So what if they are Kerry's words? How does that change the fact that none of the quotes they used demonstrate flip-flopping? Does the fact that they pieced together Kerry videos change the fact that "threat" and "imminent threat" are not even remotely the same thing? Certainly you must admit that they are not, and that it's incredibly dishonest to claim they are, not to mention the contempt for the intelligence of the American people it shows.

Also, I like how you couldn't even make it a full post without tacking a personal insult on the end.


You really are blind aren't you? How can you honestly sit there and type to me everything you just did with a straight face? I know you ware in love with John Kerry, even after voting for his opposite Howard Dean, but give me a break.

Just take one look at the 3rd video around minute 4 where Kerry basically praises Bush for the war... then listen to Howard Dean rip him. Then take a look at the debate Kerry had with Bush and you will see that Kerry has now taken the position of Dean. How can you not see that? THAT'S A FLIP FLOP! You are so frustrating sometimes.

Kerry voted for the "authorization" of force. Quick definition for you.

authorization

\Au`thor*i*za"tion\, n. [Cf. F. autorisation.] The act of giving authority or legal power; establishment by authority; sanction or warrant.


What part of that definition do you not understand gave Bush the power to go to war? You can't sit here now, months after the fact and while you are running for President, and now say that certain qualifications were not met in order to go to war. He gave Bush a blank check, end of story.

Another thing... Kerry is a Senator. He voted for authorization of force, in other words, a WAR, knowing full well that he had no control over the war once it started. Therefore, how he would have conducted the war is irrelevant!!! Kerry had no prewar plans nor did he have post war plans until it was decided he was running for President.

No matter how you want to spin it, it's just so clear and obvious what Kerry did. He voted for the war, he ran for President, was having his ass handed to him by an anti war candidate, changed his position in order to cut off support for Dean, and now he is running as an Anti War candidate who voted for the war...

That much is just painfully obvious, just not to you.
 

Brondbyfan

Senior Squad
Just take one look at the 3rd video around minute 4 where Kerry basically praises Bush for the war... then listen to Howard Dean rip him. Then take a look at the debate Kerry had with Bush and you will see that Kerry has now taken the position of Dean. How can you not see that? THAT'S A FLIP FLOP! You are so frustrating sometimes.

What on Earth are you talking about? He criticizes Bush for rushing to war without exhausting the diplomatic options. But he says he supported the president in disarming Hussein. And that's been his position all along. Now to take a quote that is a year and a half old, and that came less than two months after the invasion, that is to say, before we knew Bush was not telling the truth about mass destruction or links to Al Qaeda, before he gave no-bid contracts left and right to Cheney's Halliburton, before he underfunded the war, before he failed to use the reconstruction money in a timely fashion, before the insurgents grew to their force today, before the Prime Minister of Iraq became an honorary member of the Bush campaign team, before more than a hundred foreigners were kidnapped and before two dozen were beheaded or otherwise murdered, and most importantly before more than 1050 American soldiers died, as praising Bush in the here and now is . . . well, it's dishonest and misleading, but really it's more just plain stupid and silly.

Kerry criticized Bush then for cutting off the diplomatic, peaceful means of disarming Iraq. He stands by that today. But his criticism of Bush's handling of Iraq has rightly become more forceful considering the awful mess Bush has made over there.

Also, the authorization contained provisions requiring that diplomatic options be fully exercised, and that attacking Iraq was consistent with fighting terrorism including fighting the 9/11 attackers. Those weren't met. Now as I've said, I fault Kerry for voting for that, I think he should have been more skeptical of Bush. But it is flat-out absurd to say or imply that Kerry voted for Bush to alientate the rest of the world, to bear 90% of the the casulaties and 90% of the cost, to attack before diplomatic efforts were exhausted, to unilaterally stop the weapons inspections before any proof was found, and to make the hash of Iraq that Bush has hence done.
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by Brondbyfan
What on Earth are you talking about? He criticizes Bush for rushing to war without exhausting the diplomatic options. But he says he supported the president in disarming Hussein. And that's been his position all along. Now to take a quote that is a year and a half old, and that came less than two months after the invasion, that is to say, before we knew Bush was not telling the truth about mass destruction or links to Al Qaeda, before he gave no-bid contracts left and right to Cheney's Halliburton, before he underfunded the war, before he failed to use the reconstruction money in a timely fashion, before the insurgents grew to their force today, before the Prime Minister of Iraq became an honorary member of the Bush campaign team, before more than a hundred foreigners were kidnapped and before two dozen were beheaded or otherwise murdered, and most importantly before more than 1050 American soldiers died, as praising Bush in the here and now is . . . well, it's dishonest and misleading, but really it's more just plain stupid and silly.

Kerry criticized Bush then for cutting off the diplomatic, peaceful means of disarming Iraq. He stands by that today. But his criticism of Bush's handling of Iraq has rightly become more forceful considering the awful mess Bush has made over there.

Also, the authorization contained provisions requiring that diplomatic options be fully exercised, and that attacking Iraq was consistent with fighting terrorism including fighting the 9/11 attackers. Those weren't met. Now as I've said, I fault Kerry for voting for that, I think he should have been more skeptical of Bush. But it is flat-out absurd to say or imply that Kerry voted for Bush to alientate the rest of the world, to bear 90% of the the casulaties and 90% of the cost, to attack before diplomatic efforts were exhausted, to unilaterally stop the weapons inspections before any proof was found, and to make the hash of Iraq that Bush has hence done.

1. Provisions... the provision was to go to war, nothing else. Why can't you figure that out? It baffles me, it really does. There was no "out" clause that said "If Bush didn't do this, this, and this" we can change our vote or there will be some form of repercussions. Kerry voted for war, plain and simple. But, go ahead, keep deluding yourself.

2, 3, 4, and 5. Kerry stated that knowing what he knew now, that there were no weapons of mass destruction, he would have still voted to go to war. Your argument falls flat just based on that. Also, Halliburton LOST money in Iraq.. some sweet deal eh? And more, Kerry VOTED AGAINST FUNDING THE WAR as a "protest" vote. Your argument falls on it's face this time... Reconstruction happens on a daily basis... just don't expect to read about it in the press.


And on and on... you're a broken f'ing record. You didn't even support Kerry in the primaries, but instead the anti war candidate in Dean. How can you justify yourself? Well, you can't because you always ignore that part...


Enough with you, myrmidon.
 

Brondbyfan

Senior Squad
Provisions... the provision was to go to war, nothing else. Why can't you figure that out? It baffles me, it really does. There was no "out" clause that said "If Bush didn't do this, this, and this" we can change our vote or there will be some form of repercussions. Kerry voted for war, plain and simple. But, go ahead, keep deluding yourself.

If that is true, why does the resolution say that if Bush did decide to go to war, he had to justify it to the Congress within 48 hours and explain how (a) peaceful means were no longer adequate to protect the security of the U.S. and to enforce the resolutions of the U.N. and (b) attacking Iraq furthers the war on terror and, specifically, the 9/11 attackers?

Great links Vagegast, I laughed out loud at the first one, especially Giuliani.
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by Brondbyfan
If that is true, why does the resolution say that if Bush did decide to go to war, he had to justify it to the Congress within 48 hours and explain how (a) peaceful means were no longer adequate to protect the security of the U.S. and to enforce the resolutions of the U.N. and (b) attacking Iraq furthers the war on terror and, specifically, the 9/11 attackers?

Great links Vagegast, I laughed out loud at the first one, especially Giuliani.

I guess congress was given justification then wasn't it?

Bu the way, the US doesn't need permission from the UN to defend itself. The UN can't even defend people from being hacked to pieces in Africa.
 

Brondbyfan

Senior Squad
Wait wait wait, first you said, and I quote, Kerry "gave Bush a blank check, end of story." Now you're saying "I guess congress was given justification." I thought you said Bush didn't need to give Congress any justification. That's what "blank check" means, right?
 


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