PES4 stats related with FM2005 characters 1 by 1,IMO

pubb · May 15, 2005

zabe said:
About positions: how about using Versatility as a factor?

"Versatility (absolute-technical)
How easily he adapts to playing in unfamiliar positions."

Players like Cocu who can play almost anywhere on the pitch in real life would benefit. In the current conversion (I have version 1.2 of the EDITPES4OPTIONFILE) Cocu only gets DMF and CMF, while in FM he has scores of about 12-14 in positions corresponding CBT and OMF for example. And versatility 20.

So my idea is that players with high versatility get positions with lower scores in the position skills. The question "How much lower?" is open to debate as I'm not familiar with the exact conversion formulas.Tell me what you think.

In addition to Cocu, for example Steven Gerrard would benefit:
Now CMF+SMF, Versatility 20 => should get at least DMF and OMF with Versatility bonus

How about
position == 20 || position + versatility >=30 ?

Please help to check your familiar players. I'm not sure if a player (such as Maldini) has DR 15 and versatility 12 should get SB or not. And I'm also not sure if a player (such as Pirlo) has a AMC 14 and versatility 16 should get OMF or not. How much is position for 'unfamiliar'?

And, I accepted 'ImportantMatches' as factor to produce 'Play stability' before we can get 'Concentration'. Dida will get '1' for that. It seems true.

zabe · May 15, 2005

pubb said:
How about
position == 20 || position + versatility >=30 ?

This formula would lead to some players losing their positions. For example Sinama-Pongolle in Liverpool would lose WF (AML/R 16, Versatility 5). Of course you can say he has bad versatility but he would lose it even with 13 in it (16+13<30). So my suggestion is that you don't change the original target score (which is 15 or 16 I think?) and versatility is merely a bonus for those players with high scores in it. If the formula is something like

position >= 15 (or 16?) || position + versatility >=30

then no one would lose positions they play well (I think 15 or 16 should be well enough even if you don't have good versatility). Of course there will be some players who get a bit strange positions and some who still don't get what they deserve, but I think this would be a step towards the right direction. After all, if a player has a score of AMC 14 and versatility 16 in FM, and he shouldn't be able to play OMF, I think the error is in FM database and not in the conversion, since these stats clearly suggest he can play the position in FM.

With some searching I didn't really find players who would get strange positions, since there are few players who can make the last rule in the formula but not the first. Even with Versatility 15-20 you still need pretty good scores in the position skill.

pubb · May 15, 2005

zabe said:
This formula would lead to some players losing their positions. For example Sinama-Pongolle in Liverpool would lose WF (AML/R 16, Versatility 5). Of course you can say he has bad versatility but he would lose it even with 13 in it (16+13<30). So my suggestion is that you don't change the original target score (which is 15 or 16 I think?) and versatility is merely a bonus for those players with high scores in it. If the formula is something like

position >= 15 (or 16?) || position + versatility >=30

then no one would lose positions they play well (I think 15 or 16 should be well enough even if you don't have good versatility). Of course there will be some players who get a bit strange positions and some who still don't get what they deserve, but I think this would be a step towards the right direction. After all, if a player has a score of AMC 14 and versatility 16 in FM, and he shouldn't be able to play OMF, I think the error is in FM database and not in the conversion, since these stats clearly suggest he can play the position in FM.

With some searching I didn't really find players who would get strange positions, since there are few players who can make the last rule in the formula but not the first. Even with Versatility 15-20 you still need pretty good scores in the position skill.

How about
position + max(0,(versatility - 13)/2) >= 15 ?
then (14,15), (13,17), (12, 19) will get. So:

Steven Gerrard: SB, DMF, CMF, SMF, OMF
Robben: SMF, OMF, WF
Jarosik: DMF, CMF, SMF
Lauren (Arsenal): SB, CMF, SMF
Pires: SMF, OMF, WF
Kaladez(AC Milan): CBT, SB, DMF, SMF
Pirlo: DMF, CMF, OMF
Cocu: CBT, SB, DMF, CMF, SMF, OMF, WF
Belletti: CBT, SB
Guti H.: CMF, OMF, CF
Figo: CMF, SMF, OMF, WF
Zidane: CMF, OMF, WF
Gravesen: DMF, CMF

Do you agree? In my own opinion, versatility has been impressed in position value, so Cocu has many position value greater than 10. But if we choose 15 as the door value, we have ignored the position value lower than 15. If we add versatility back, can I take it as double versatility's effection? So if we keep the current formula?

zabe · May 15, 2005

That looks about right to me. Of course Cocu also gets CMF.

I believe the players' high versatility has helped them gain the scores in many position skills (in FM I believe their position skills rise faster). So yes, you could say there's a double effect. Still, if we don't use versatility in the formula, the players don't get an effect whatsoever since skills less than 15 are ignored. And in the end, this effect we're adding isn't that big. So versatility helps players perform better in those positions they still haven't fully learned (levels 12-14 in our case), just as it says in the description.

So yes, I agree to that formula. If anyone has better ideas, they are welcome.

pubb · May 16, 2005

If there's an another man agrees with the change, I'll do it.

After all, a DMF plays as CMF he doesn't have looks good enough.

nik0s · May 16, 2005

All is good there, except for Steven Gerrard having SB, I don't think I've ever seen him playing there.

pubb · May 16, 2005

Can't help. FM says he can play as 13, even greater than DMF 12.

nik0s · May 17, 2005

oops I missed that...all is good in the new version as far as I can see from wolf's patch, except for the players with 0 stamina being too low

pubb · May 17, 2005

stamina 0 will be '6x-7x'.

scoham · May 17, 2005

Wow this is still going!

Dribble Accuracy -> Dribbling (80%) + Concentration (20%)

Concentration:How well the player concentrates on a move-by-move basis during a match (this is “consistency” during a match on a move by move basis)

Dribble Speed -> Dribbling (70%) + Decisions (15%) + Acceleration (15%)

Concentration is nothing to do with dribbling in FM.

Low concentration is given to either players like Titus Bramble who just can't concentrate for a whole match, or players like Rommedahl who seem to drift in and out of the games.

I can't see how a player that makes good decisions is a fast dribbler because of it. I don't think they should be linked like that.

Also surely technique in PES is mainly used for a players first touch? After that doesn't it use dribbling accuracy? So shouldn't first touch be more important than technique in PES?

pubb · May 19, 2005

v0.7.5.
I'm still going...
Now it's the data range for stats. I've walked through a data file for WE7 and get a list of max/min for each stat of KONAMI stats.

Code:

	{99,25},	/* offence, 24 */
	{99,25},	/* defense, 25 */
	{99,55},	/* balance,55 */
	{99,50},	/* stamina, XXX 32 */
	{99,40},	/* topspeed,44 */
	{99,45},	/* acceleration,48 */
	{99,50},	/* response,50 */
	{99,50},	/* agility,97,50 */
	{99,25},	/* dribbleaccuracy,28 */
	{99,35},	/* dribblespeed,96,35 */
	{99,30},	/* shortpassaccuracy,30 */
	{94,30},	/* shortpassspeed,34 XXX look at the max */
	{99,35},	/* longpassaccuracy,36 */
	{99,40},	/* longpassspeed,41 */
	{99,30},	/* shootaccuracy,31 */
	{99,45},	/* shootpower,48 */
	{99,40},	/* shoottechnique,44 */
	{99,25},	/* freekick,29 */
	{99,20},	/* curving,24 */
	{99,30},	/* heading,32 */
	{99,45},	/* jump,49 */
	{99,30},	/* technique,30 */
	{99,35},	/* aggression,36 */
	{99,45},	/* mentality,45 */
	{8,1},		/* playstability,1 */
	{99,65},	/* goalkeepingskills,65 */
	{99,45},	/* teamwork,48 */
	{8,1},		/* conditionstability, XXX 3 */
	{8,1},		/* weakfootaccuracy,1 */
	{8,1}		/* weakfootfrequency,1 */
/* these are for offence/defence on different positions */
	{{64,25},{99,60}},/* GK {62,24}{98,64}, up a little for offence */
	{{84,25},{99,60}},/* CBW {84,70}{95,79}, XXX almost no one in KONAMI except in classic teams */
	{{84,30},{99,55}},/* CBT {80,30}{97,55} */
	{{89,50},{94,40}},/* SB {88,50}{91,40} */
	{{89,45},{94,30}},/* DMF {87,46}{91,32} */
	{{94,50},{84,30}},/* CMF {80,58}{81,58}, rare in KONAMI, set to be the same as SMF */
	{{94,50},{84,30}},/* SMF {91,55}{81,35} */
	{{99,55},{84,30}},/* OMF {99,59}{79,32} */
	{{94,60},{69,25}},/* WF {95,69}{65,27}, down a little for offence */
	{{99,65},{79,20}} /* CF {98,64}{75,25} */

The attchments are a few teams with new stats(not newest fm2005 data). Please have a look. I think it's better.

Also in the changed list there are 'GK's response' and 'Jumping'. A new method to penalize and reward according to players' height.

pubb · May 26, 2005

v0.7.7a, use new WE8 stats scale. That sounds to be nearly perfect...
Please say something to help it to the end version.

pubb · May 26, 2005

look at the strong and less strong clubs.

clements · May 26, 2005

hey pubb.. could you update the stats in your first post to the latest version?

pubb · May 26, 2005

Updated.
Almost no changes in 'one by one' meaning.
From v0.7.1 (the wolf patch use it) on, I just changed 'work rate' tuning down mechanism and reset the stats scale.
Now 'work rate' will tune down stats like this:
value -= rand() % ((20 - workrate)/5 +1)
Then a player with work rate 16-20 will be tuned down 0, or 1; 11-15 will down 0,1,or 2. and so on.

The original thought of using 'work rate' to tune down is the values are too high than KONAMI ones. Now I found it's problem of scale. With the new scale system, the stats looks ok even without 'work rate' effection. But to avoid too many common value as 19 -> 96, 18 -> 94, I use 'work rate' to make stats more variable.

Any suggestion? I believe the current version of engine make almost the same stats view just as the KONAMI ones. It sounds good.

clements · May 27, 2005

balance: strength

according to KONAMI's stats, it is clear that they focus BALANCE on a player's "toughness", meaning their physical strength.
if you take a look at the players with high BALANCE, they are mostly CBs, GKs, and the big CFs, and maybe some DMFs as well.

dribbling speed: dribbling, acceleration

as PACE relates more to a player's top speed, i strongly feel that ACCELERATION is more appropriate when it comes to dribbling.
when i used to play FM, i also looked out for dribblers with good technique and acceleration before asking them to run with ball.

curling: free.kicks + corners + crossing + 40

it may seem like a very simple formula, but the results look more realistic IMO.
also, Beckham now gets a higher CURLING value than D'Alessandro.
take a look at some of the examples below..

A.D'Alessandro: 95 => 96
A.Recoba: 89 => 94
C.Rahn: 80 => 91
D.Beckham: 93 => 99
D.Fletcher: 84 => 78
G.Neville: 70 => 62
H.Larsson: 80 => 72
I.Harte: 79 => 91
L.Robert: 88 => 96
R.Carlos: 82 => 88
S.Eto'o: 81 => 73

pubb · May 27, 2005

My basic formula is as the following:
(reference - cm_min) * (pes_max - pes_min) / (cm_max - cm_min) + pes_min

for example: agility, we get pes_max=99, pes_min=45, cm_max=20, cm_min=1, then
a player with agility 15 will get
(15 -1) * (99 - 45) / (20 - 1) + 45 = 84

And then I tune it down by 'work rate' in this one:
agility = agility - rand() % ((20 - workrate) / 5 + 1)
that player with workrate 13 will get
agility = agility - rand() % ((20 - 13) / 5 +1)
then the player's agility will be 84,83 or 82 as the result.

For 'balance' issue, the meaning of the two games is nearly the same. And we know in game, a high balance player will be more easily holding the ball when challanged by the opponent while dribbling.

For 'dribbling speed', don't know what makes you think so. I just see the current results are ok. 'curling' is ok in my opinion too.

Then?

ps: I've reset 'shoot power','pass speed' formula. I found many backlines have low longshots but with high shoot power in KONAMI stats such as Hyypia, Stam and many. so I add strength to them. It seems to be better in my view.

pubb · May 31, 2005

Are the following attack/defense values acceptable?

Nesta : 38 / 99
Hyypia: 40 / 88
Makelele : 63 / 90
Zidane : 90 / 65
Crespo : 88 / 41
Kaka : 88 / 45

clements · May 31, 2005

looks good, but still needs a bit of tweaking..
how did you come up with that?

pubb · May 31, 2005

Now I'm using max/avg to calculate instead of max/min and I found it's better than ever. The formula becomes:

Code:

pes_value = (cm_reference - cm_avg) * (pes_max - pes_avg) / (cm_max - cm_avg) + pes_avg

I can go tweaking through changing 'cm_avg' from 10, higher to make pes_value lower, lower to make it higher.

PES4 stats related with FM2005 characters 1 by 1,IMO

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