PES4 stats related with FM2005 characters 1 by 1,IMO

[clements]

Stats are looking good. You should improve those players free kick accuracy who kick free kicks in real life. E.g Geremi is in your stats best free kicker in Chelsea. I don´t think so.

that is the case because in the FM db, Geremi's Set Piece ability is the highest in Chelsea.. it is not a problem with the conversion formula

 

[kschoice]

that is the case because in the FM db, Geremi's Set Piece ability is the highest in Chelsea.. it is not a problem with the conversion formula

Shame on me. I should read what is in his mind instead of the FM files.

 

[pubb]

Let's talk about the bad things in the convertion engine v1.2 included. All faults about stats are from me, not kschoice.
I know one problem in convertion formula: PLAYMAKING.
Maybe the following is better:

vision >= 17 AND vision + influence >= 36
OR
vision >= 19 AND vision + influence >= 33

That'll disable Duff, Ibrahimovic and Raul's 'playmaking' special skills.
done in version 1.2.1

And Verte's convertion system has some problems too. But some of his ideas are very good and instructive. For example, it seems that he takes 'scoring' coming from 'off the ball>=17 and finishing>=17'. Is it better than just looking to 'finishing'? 'Scoring' in PES is really

Positions the player on the front line so that he can dash forward to receive crosses and through balls.

But the results of mine now looks just OK.
His '1-1 scoring' comes from 'composure + finishing'. It's a good idea too. Pityful is we didn't get 'composure' out of CM's database.

The more realistic the stats converted from FM2005 is, the more fans will play with it. Programmer is not GOD actually, he's God's servant to make more people believe in God. There must be a perfect EditPES4OptionFile as well as a perfect convertion engine that we don't find out yet.

 

[Kalenkki]

Oh my god ! Do you really think that I actually converted all the players, then went through all of them to check the results, and actually even considered the fact that Geremi would or would not be the best free kicker in Chelsea ? I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT GEREMI'S STATS ARE WHEN CONVERTED, I don't even know the stats for other Chelsea players, for god's sake, and have you even wondered if you have the same database than me ?

And if I did do all that, wouldn't it be a little harsh to annihilate all that work for your different view on ONE player ?

ONE LAST TIME, THOSE ARE NOT MY STATS !!!!! Even less now the conversion engine has been rewritten by someone else.

Those are Championship Manager / Football Manager stats converted as good as possible as PES stats. You're not happy with players' free kick abilities ? Tweak them yourself ! It's not meant to be perfect, because it can't be.

To thenerdgod :

I hope you can realize with this kind of message why I didn't want to agree on every little change that was asked on the conversion. I told you at least 10 times that I would include a new conversion engine if someone would provide me with it, I've done it, no more, no less. You don't even know how much time I worked with pubb on it. So believe me, I did understand what you meant with your first message, and I still find it quite inappropriate for you to complain on how it is difficult to make me change something in my program. By the way, if I had done everything (well, not everything, because it was sometimes even conflicting) people asked me about the conversion, there would have been dozens of versions and not a single improvement in the rest of the editor.

No i didn´t say that you have convert every single player by your self. I just say that you have to improve free kick formula. I don´t know how but that´s why I´m not doing this kind of stuff. Sorry.

 

[clements]

No i didn´t say that you have convert every single player by your self. I just say that you have to improve free kick formula. I don´t know how but that´s why I´m not doing this kind of stuff. Sorry.

the FK formula is actually fine imo.. Geremi's Set Piece ability in FM is 17 which is higher than Lampard's 16.. that explains the fact that he has the highest FK value in WE/PES after conversion.. so the main problem here is the stats from FM db

 

[clements]

i feel that PLAYMAKING should not involve INFLUENCE.. because in FM, it is based on leadership and thus has no relation to PLAYMAKING

one consideration though could involve DECISIONS along with VISION

vision >= 18 AND decisions >= 17

in this way.. players like Kaka, Rosicky & Ronaldinho will possess playmaking skills while others like Raul, Ibrahimovic & Duff won't


anyway, why can't COMPOSURE be extracted from the FM db?

 

[pubb]

Increased awareness of the team's attacking formation when in possession of the ball.[

The description for 'playmaking' makes me believe 'influence' can do something.

But yours looks better.

 

[clements]

any idea why COMPOSURE can't be extracted from the FM db?
cos i believe that it is very important in determining 1-1 SCORING..

 

[clements]

the 5 formulae listed below are just suggestions and are open for discussions..
it might be a bit draggy, but please bear with me if you are interested.


DRIBBLING:
The player (when COM controlled) favours dribbling when in possessions of the ball

from what i understand of the definition is that, the DRIBBLING ability defines a player's tendency to dribble rather than his ability to dribble as that is based on his DRIBBLE ACC/SPD.. this would mean that he is more of a "selfish" player than a team player.. however, this is only true when he is COM controlled.
therefore, based on that explanation, a player's DRIBBLING ability would have to involve FM's TEAMWORK as well.

dribbling >= 16 AND teamwork <= 13

however, do take note that a player who doesn't possess the DRIBBLING ability, doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't dribble when he has the ball.. a player who has that ability is just more likely to dribble than pass when faced with a with a 2-on-1 situation.. play a COM-vs-COM match and you'll get what i mean.

based on the above formula.. players like van der Meyde & Eto'o who don't possess the DRIBBLING ability ATM after conversion with v1.2, will do so, while others like Zidane, Pirlo, Gudjohnsen & Emre won't.


ANTI-DRIBBLING GOALIE:
Can guard the ball with tricky dribbling

from my understanding of the definition, it is a player's ability to perform tricks when dribbling the ball.. this would simply mean, performing "unexpected moves" when in possession of the ball.
therefore, the first thing that comes to mind when it comes to performing tricks would be players with FLAIR & TECHNIQUE.

dribbling >= 16 AND flair >= 18 AND technique >= 18

based on the above formula.. players like Zidane, Ronaldinho, Okocha & Cristiano Ronaldo will possess this ability, just like IRL.


PLAYMAKING:
Increases awareness of the team's attacking formation when in possession of the ball

as mentioned earlier.. i feel that PLAYMAKING should not involve INFLUENCE.. because in FM, it is based on leadership and thus has no relation to PLAYMAKING.
one consideration could be to base PLAYMAKING on FM's VISION & DECISIONS.

vision >= 18 AND decisions >= 17

in this way.. players like Kaka, Rosicky & Ronaldinho who don't possess the PLAYMAKING ability ATM after conversion with v1.2, will do so, while others like Raul, Ibrahimovic & Duff won't.


PASSING:
Allows the player to make through balls and goal creating passes with perfect precision and timing

just like PLAYMAKING, a player's tendency to pass the ball during a match is very much dependent on his decision at that particular moment.
therefore, the PASSING ability should also involve FM's DECISIONS as well.

passing >= 18 AND decisions >= 17

as there are a too many defensive players with the PASSING ability ATM after conversion with v1.2, based on the above formula, players like Nesta, Helguera, Gamarra & Ronaldo won't possess that ability anymore


SLIDING TACKLE:
Improves sliding accuracy

based on the definition, it is easy to base that ability with FM's TACKLING ability.
however, this would mean that players with very high tackling in FM could simply possess the SLIDING TACKLE ability in WE/PES.. this would result in many players with that ability.
therefore, i instead considered the tendency of a player making a sliding tackle IRL and thus made use of FM's BRAVERY in the conversion

tackling >= 17 AND bravery >= 18

players like Heinze & Butt, who don't possess that ability ATM after conversion with v1.2, will do so, based on the above formula.

 

[clements]

in addition to those mentioned above, listed below are suggestions for the other abilities..
i am however still unable to figure out a formula for the SIDE & CENTRE abilities


POST PLAYER (CFs as default/auxiliary positions only):

strength >= 15 AND jumping >= 15 AND teamwork >= 14 AND heading >= 13 AND passing >= 12

POSITIONING:

off the ball >= 16 AND anticipation >= 16

REACTION:

off the ball >= 18

LINE POSITIONING (CFs as default/auxiliary positions only):

off the ball >= 16 AND decisions >= 16

SCORING (CFs as default/auxiliary positions only):

finishing >= 17 AND off the ball >= 15

BOTH FEET FEINT:

dribbling >= 16 AND flair >= 18 AND |right.ft - left.ft| <= 6

PENALTIES:

penalty taking >= 17

1-1 SCORING:

finishing >= 17 AND composure >= 16

LONG THROW:

long throws >= 17

1-TOUCH PASS:

passing >= 17 AND first touch >= 17

OUTSIDE:

long shots >= 16 AND technique >= 18

MARKING:

marking >= 17

D-LINE CONTROL:

positioning >= 17 AND influence >= 17

 

[pubb]

very good ideas. I'll have a try with some example team.

 

[clements]

please give me your feedback.. i'll try to improve on it

 

[Szadou]

1-1 SCORING should be:

finishing >= 17 AND composure >= 16

If not the likes of Mista, RvN, Adriano and Owen won't have this ability.

 

[pubb]

very good ideas.

For 'dribbling', maybe your definition is more accurate to the official description, but in the KONAMI stats, many players with 'dribbling' has a high 'teamwork'. Do you agree that there're no players with 'dribbling' skill in AC Milan?

'outside' is not what you assume.

Improves the ability to kick using the outside of the player's boot.

'reaction' and 'positioning' need improvement. 'reaction' is a more common skill, while fewer players have 'positioning'.

In KONAMI stats, few players have both 'playmaking' and 'passing' enabled. But in your system, maybe many will have both. More consideration here, too.

I have an idea for designing test of convertion system. We'd better find out a special normal player in reality or in KONAMI stats, who's special in some area like 'playmaking','dribbling' or so, and normal in most of other areas. For example, we know Inesta in Barcelona is normal except for 'playmaking'. Then we know what can be essential for 'playmaking'. If we get a list of such players, we can test our formulas.

 

[Tom]

1-1 SCORING should be:

finishing >= 17 AND composure >= 16

if you're saying that then anticipation needs to be in there.

TROD.

 

[clements]

For 'dribbling', maybe your definition is more accurate to the official description, but in the KONAMI stats, many players with 'dribbling' has a high 'teamwork'. Do you agree that there're no players with 'dribbling' skill in AC Milan?

what you are saying is true, i just checked it out in fact.. according to KONAMI's stats, Del Piero has the highest TEAMWORK(86) amongst all the players with DRIBBLING ability.

with regards to AC Milan players with no DRIBBLING ability, we could maybe adjust the formula to give more players the DRIBBLING ability.. i also noticed too many players w/o DRIBBLING ability, so i revised it..

dribbling >= 16 AND teamwork <= 15

this is a very tricky issue, because i also later noticed players with DRIBBLING ACC/SPD of only 70+ with DRIBBLING ability.. i still believe that the DRIBBLING ability relates to the frequency a player dribbles the ball when in possession.. one perfect example IRL would be C.Ronaldo.. he sometimes gets ticked off by his own teammates when he dribbles the ball when there is a player open waiting for a pass.

i simulated four COM-vs-COM, 15-min matches with C.Ronaldo DRIBBLING ON and OFF for two matches each.. from there i realised that on the occasions when it was ON, he played more like himself IRL.. he would run with the ball more frequently.. try out a match for yourself, cos it's really hard for me to explain.

maybe you could post your formula and we could analyse and come up with a better one.

'outside' is not what you assume.

i expected people to say that based on the formula written.. maybe i'll just explain..

OUTSIDE - "Improves the ability to kick using the oustide of the player's boot"

i clearly understand the definition and was wondering how we are ever gonna figure this out from the stats from FM's db w/o extracting the data from FM's 'prefered moves' section.. after much thought, i realised that a player IRL uses the outside of his foot to sometimes stop a ball or pass a ball, this is extremely true for players who simply refuse to use their weaker foot.. most significantly though, he'll use it when attempting a volley.. just like in WE/PES, the OUTSIDE ability doesn't seem to really affect the way a player stops or passes the ball with the ouside of his foot, but rather the way he shoots the ball.

as a player usually uses the outside of his foot to shoot a ball when attempting a volley, a great deal of technique is involved here, trust me , this led to the formula written which involved LONG SHOTS and TECHNIQUE

again, maybe you could post your formula and we could analyse and come up with a better one as these are my own deductions.

1-1 SCORING should be:

finishing >= 17 AND composure >= 16

If not the likes of Mista, RvN, Adriano and Owen won't have this ability.

agreed.. edited my original post

if you're saying that then anticipation needs to be in there.

TROD.

why do you wanna include ANTICIPATION into that?

 

[Tom]

"Anticipation (relative-mental)
How well he anticipates what is about to happen on the field.
- often what separates the excellent players from the good players, it is useful for all players across the field, but particularly for defenders/strikers who have to read situations VERY fast."

thats why.

TROD.

 

[pubb]

I've placed 'what related to what' in the first article of this thread. That's actually what v1.2 did.

 

[clements]

thought of some changes to your formulae..
changes are indicated after arrows

balance: balance, strength
==> strength

dribbling speed: dribbling, pace
==> dribbling, acceleration

freekick accuracy: free.kicks, corners
==> free.kicks

curling: corner, technique
==> corners, crossing, free.kicks

play stability: natural.fitness
==> consistency - if concerns stability between matches
==> concentration - if concerns stability during a match

condition stability: consistency
==> natural.fitness


GK:
defense: aerial.ability, one.on.ones, positioning
balance: strength
response: command.of.area, rushing.out, anticipation
agility: agility
GK skills: aerial.ability, handling, one.on.ones, reflexes

direct GK kick: kicking
penalty stopper: anticipation, reflexes
1-on-1 stopper: one.on.ones


let me know what you think

 

[pubb]

Can you give some example players or teams besides just formulas? That's more persuasive.

balance: balance, strength
==> strength

dribbling speed: dribbling, pace
==> dribbling, acceleration

freekick accuracy: free.kicks, corners
==> free.kicks

curling: corner, technique
==> corners, crossing, free.kicks

need special player with much different between your formulas and mine.

play stability: natural.fitness
==> consistency - if concerns stability between matches
==> concentration - if concerns stability during a match

condition stability: consistency
==> natural.fitness

'condition stability' is 'consistency between matches' according to the official description, and 'play stability' is 'consistency during a match' according to my understanding. EditPES4OptionFile can't provide 'concentration' for now, so I have to rely on 'natural fitness'. Although, you see, the results are just fine. Can you tell some 'strange' results for players?

GK:
defense: aerial.ability, one.on.ones, positioning

Maybe 'command of area' is not "The higher the better' one. My formula is wrong. Don't agree include 'one on ones' in defense stat. I hope there's a goalkeeper with relatively low 'defense' but a genius for one on ones.

balance: strength

response: command.of.area, rushing.out, anticipation

Look at Dida. It's him who make me think a lot on whether let 'anticipation' participate in 'response' of GK.

agility: agility

GK skills: aerial.ability, handling, one.on.ones, reflexes

I believe 'gk skills' is only related to 'handling'. Can you give some example closely matched between reality and your formula?

direct GK kick: kicking

PES has no special skills of 'Direct GK throwing'. Someone with high 'throwing' should be rewarded in some way. Actually I leaned to 'kicking' in my formula.

penalty stopper: anticipation, reflexes

Any example?

1-on-1 stopper: one.on.ones

let me know what you think