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Middle East war

CapaJr

I Will Learn To Respect My Fellow Man, Even If It
Red Card
The_Knight said:
Was that the video everyone was talking about a coupla days ago? (DSL was down so I didn't see it)

http://spikedhumor.com/articles/46227/George_Galloway_PWNING_sky_news.html

This guy, he really said it.

WHO İS THİS GUY? WOW I HAVE NEVER SEEN A 'MODERN' FACE BEFORE THAT ONLY SPOKE ABOUT THE REAL TRUTH!
I AGREE WITH EVERY SINGLE WORD HE SAID , NOBODY KNOWS SINGLE FAMILY IN GAZA THAT DIED, BUT IF ITS ISRAEL, ITS ALL OVER THE NEWS! ITS PURE IGNORANCE.
 

Will

Senior Squad
Why are these threads started?

Seriously, they all follow the same pattern:
1. Thread opened
2. Rush of stupid comments
3. 50 pages of circular arguments between the same 5 or so members
4. Arguments get out of hand - thread gets locked

It's really pointless - I'm all for sensible discussion but these war threads really grate after a while.
 

The_Knight

Senior Squad
These are the normal dynamics of net debates, Will.

In the meantime... (cnn.com)

In northern Lebanon, Israeli airstrikes on a bridge near the Syrian border killed 11 Lebanese civilians and wounded 13, according to Lebanese Internal Security Forces. The bridge was located between Abboudiyeh and the Aarida crossing, sources said.

Five Israeli soldiers sustained minor injuries Friday during operations in Qantara, east of the port city of Tyre, the Israel Defense Forces said.

Funny how cnn chose the headline "New Strikes in Mideast fighting" for these events.
 

Pontiakos

Starting XI
king said:
WHY THE F**K YOU GUYS HAVE TO INVOLVE TURKEY AND GREECE IN EVERY F**KIN THREAD???!!!!!!!













is that big enough?!!!


Its called an aside and it happens in almost every thread for different reason .......now p*ss off.
 

Pontiakos

Starting XI
AlkalineOrion said:
While Pat Robertson is a total fool and should be dismissed just as any other religious nutcase, he does make a good point. A war is a war... people die, and in the past, before the media started trying to manipulate things, lots of people died. Germany and Japan were defeated because we took the war to everyone. We bombed cities until the ENTIRE country had to capitulate and give up. That isn't the case anymore... people are relatively safe in war zones as compared to the past. That may sound harsh but it's completely true.

In order to win wars you must destroy as much as possible until the enemy gives in. That goes for whatever side you support.


Absolutely.......Why do we keep making such a big deal about the Jewish holocaust :ewan: ......war is war people die. :jambo:
 
^ haha you really like that George Galloway vid, don't ya? See, not all of us infidels are mindless barbarians....some of us can actually see things rationally (even if we're still gonna burn in Hell) :)
 

The_Knight

Senior Squad
The True, this also has been already discussed before. And take a look at the response, I have a feeling you'll like it. (It's sickening how some would be so jolly about photo fraud, when already more than 900 Lebanese civilians have been killed, in less than 4 weeks. With an unprecedent percentage of women and children flattened down in their homelands, refugee camps, or fleeing in between.)

Four short clips of what Americans never see on TV

http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/23157/Things_Americans_Won_t_See_On_The_News

By the way, this ALL is still US/UK media coverage. Even though there are much worse footage at other sites some would call biased. So there you go.

Oh and in the 2nd video, 2 days later, this Israeli articulate woman turned out to be flat lying. And even the Military said this bombed site hasn't witnessed a single rocket launch for the duration of the day and the day before the bombing. So, pfft.
 

The_Knight

Senior Squad
Today in Lebanon.

Israel:
Israel's attack on convoy a 'mistake'
Saturday 12 August 2006, 1:50 GMT

Israel has admitted that it was "mistaken" in attacking a convoy of hundreds of cars carrying people fleeing the fighting in southern Lebanon.

At least seven people were killed and 36 wounded when an unmanned Israeli aircraft fired on the convoy of more than 500 vehicles.

The Israeli army confirmed it had carried out an air strike on the convoy, saying it had acted on the mistaken suspicion that Hezbollah guerrillas were smuggling weapons in the vehicles.

"The attack was carried out based on a suspicion. It was found to be incorrect," an army spokeswoman said.

You can imagine the state of the families right now, on this road.

On the other hand, today too:

Hezbollah:
Hezbollah downs helicopter
Sunday 13 August 2006, 22:03 GMT

Hezbollah fighters have shot down an Israeli helicopter in south Lebanon and killed four more Israeli soldiers, as fighting continues ahead of a ceasefire.

Everyday is proving a point. Every single day.
 

INFESTA

Official
Here's my opinion on this conflict:

Both parties obviously disregard with a passion the well-being of civs on the other side of the fence. The ends justify the means, and the ends satisfy anybody but themselves. Hezbollah and Israel are 2 faces of a coin buried in dirt and lies.

Anybody supporting one side supports the widespread practice of finding targets on every civillian that wears different colours.
Anybody supporting any of the sides involved in this war (directly or indirectly) is not on my side.
 

The_Knight

Senior Squad
INFESTA, I wouldn't say at all Hezbollah is exactly the same as Israel as regards targeting civilians. Everyday proves this wrong. And During the past 6 years, Hezbollah's targets have actualy all been military. And in this conflict, they are -in comparison to Israel- keeping it as military as possible despite them having the much more primitive weaponry. Whereas Israel bombs the hell out of whatever civilian target it feels like with its percision missiles, for the past 4 weeks, the last of which was:

Israel's attack on convoy a 'mistake'
Saturday 12 August 2006, 1:50 GMT

Israel has admitted that it was "mistaken" in attacking a convoy of hundreds of cars carrying people fleeing the fighting in southern Lebanon.

At least seven people were killed and 36 wounded when an unmanned Israeli aircraft fired on the convoy of more than 500 vehicles.

The Israeli army confirmed it had carried out an air strike on the convoy, saying it had acted on the mistaken suspicion that Hezbollah guerrillas were smuggling weapons in the vehicles.

"The attack was carried out based on a suspicion. It was found to be incorrect," an army spokeswoman said.
And these are actually large numbers of civilian cars fleeing a fight zone. With apparently, no escape. In broad daylight.

I'm not sure I want to know what will happen today.

My point is, they are both quite different, from more than one angle.
 
Gimme a break man.. I'm in no way defending Israel here and I think their aggression towards the entire country of Lebanon is illegal and grossly excessive, but you really need to open your mind and stop seeing things so one-sided. The Katyusha rockets that Hizbollah fires indescriminantly at Isreali towns are filled with thousands of ball-bearings, designed for the sole purpose of taking out human life, military, civilian, whatever.. The statistics speak for themselves in regards to civilian casualties, nobody can deny that, but quit trying to make it sound like only one side has blood on it's hands here.

btw, you already posted that article, find a new one..
 

The_Knight

Senior Squad
::shinji:: said:
btw, you already posted that article, find a new one..
Alright, and quite a relavent one too...

Hypocrisy About Hezbollah
by Jonathan Cook

A reader recently e-mailed to ask if anyone else was suggesting, as I have done, that Hezbollah's rocket fire may not be quite as indiscriminate or maliciously targeted at Israeli civilians as is commonly assumed. I had to admit that I have been plowing a lonely furrow on this one. Still, that is no reason in itself to join everyone else, even if the consensus includes every mainstream commentator as well as groups such as Human Rights Watch.

First, let us get my argument straight. I have not claimed, as most of my critics wish to argue, that Hezbollah targets only military sites or that it never aims at civilians. According to the Israeli army, more than 3,300 rockets have hit Israel over the past four weeks. How can I know, or even claim to know, where all those rockets have landed, or know what the Hezbollah operatives who fired each rocket intended to hit? I have never made such claims.

What I have argued instead is twofold. First, we cannot easily know what Hezbollah is trying to hit because Israel has located most of its army camps, weapons factories, and military installations near or inside civilian communities. If a Hezbollah rocket slams into an Israeli town with a weapons factory, should we count that as an attack on civilians or on a military site?

The claim being made against Hezbollah in Lebanon – that it is "cowardly blending" with civilians, according to the UN's Jan Egeland – can, in truth, be made far more convincingly of the Israeli army. While there has been little convincing evidence that Hezbollah is firing its rocket from towns and villages in south Lebanon, or that its fighters are hiding there among civilians, it can be known beyond a shadow of a doubt that Israeli army camps and military installations are based in northern Israeli communities.

An obvious point that no one seems to be making – and given a news blackout that lasted several hours, Israel clearly hoped no one would make – is that the 12 soldiers who were killed on Sunday in Kfar Giladi by a Hezbollah rocket were, under Egeland's definition, "cowardly blending" with the civilian population of that community. We know there are still civilians in Giladi because their response to the rocket barrage was quoted in the Israeli media.

My second claim was that Israel's military censor is preventing foreign journalists based in Israel, myself included, from discussing where Hezbollah rockets are landing, and what they may be aimed at. Under the censorship rules, it is impossible to mention any issue that touches on Israeli security or defense matters: the location of military installations, for example, cannot be divulged. It is arguable whether it would actually be possible to report a Hezbollah strike that hit a military site inside Israel.

I therefore have to tread carefully in what I say next, relying on information that is already publicly available, but which at least challenges the simplistic view that Hezbollah is firing rockets either indiscriminately or willfully to kill civilians. I draw on two pieces of coverage provided by BBC World.

On Tuesday, the BBC's Katya Adler reported from the northern community of Kiryat Shmona, which has taken the heaviest pounding from Hezbollah rockets and from which many of the local residents have fled over the past month. As she stood on a central street describing the difficult conditions under which the remaining families were living, she had to shout over the rhythmic bark of what sounded like an Israeli tank close by firing into Lebanon. She made no mention of what was doing the firing – and given the censorship laws, my assumption is she cannot. But it does raise the question of how much of a civilian target Kiryat Shmona really is.

Consider also this. Throughout the four weeks of fighting, the BBC has had a presenter and film crew at the top of an area of Haifa known as the Panorama, above the beautiful Bahai Gardens. As the name suggests, from there the film crew has had an unrestricted view of the port and docks below and the wide arc of heavily developed shoreline that stretches up to Acre.

The spot where the BBC presenters have been standing, telling us regularly that they can hear the wail of sirens warning Haifa's residents to head for the shelters, is in the center of this sprawling ridge-top city, in one of the most heavily built up and inhabited areas of Haifa. So why have the BBC's presenters been standing there calmly every day for weeks under the barrage of rockets?

Because all the evidence suggests that Hezbollah has not been trying to hit the center of Haifa, where it would be certain of inflicting high casualties, whether its rockets were on target or slightly adrift. Instead, as BBC presenters have repeatedly shown us, the overwhelming majority of rockets land either in the mostly-abandoned port area or fall short into the bay – and on the odd occasion travel a little too far, as one did on Sunday landing on an Arab neighborhood near the port and killing two inhabitants.

If Hezbollah's primary goal is to kill as many civilians as possible in Haifa, it seems to be going about it in a very strange manner indeed – unless we are to believe that none of its rockets could be fired the extra 1 km needed to hit central Haifa. Instead, as is clear from the view shown by BBC cameras, the port includes many sites far more "strategic" than the roads, bridges, milk factories, and power stations Israel is destroying in Lebanon: it has the oil refinery, the naval docks, and other installations that, yes, I cannot mention because of the censorship laws.

At the very least, we should concede to Hezbollah that it is not always targeting civilians, and very possibly is not mainly targeting civilians, which might in part explain the comparatively low Israeli civilian casualty figures.

That said, there are two valid criticisms, both made by Human Rights Watch, of Hezbollah's rocket fire – though exactly the same or worse criticisms can be made of the Israeli army. Those, unlike HRW, who single out Hezbollah are being either disingenuous or hypocritical.

One is that Hezbollah has filled many of its rockets with ball bearings. Most critics of Hezbollah take this as conclusive proof that the group's only intent is to kill and injure civilians. Anyone who has seen the damage done by a Katyusha rocket will realize that it is not a very powerful weapon: it essentially punches a hole in whatever it hits. The biggest danger is from the shrapnel and from anything added – like ball bearings – that sprays out on impact. The shrapnel can kill civilians nearby, of course, but it can also kill soldiers – as we saw at Kfar Giladi – and can puncture tanks containing flammable liquids such as petrol, causing explosions.

The damage inflicted by the ball bearings is not in itself proof that Hezbollah is trying to kill Israeli civilians, any more than Israel's use of far more lethal cluster bombs is proof that it wants to kill Lebanese civilians. Both are acting according to the gruesome realities of war: they want to inflict as much damage as possible with each rocket strike. That is deplorable, but so is war.

The second criticism made by HRW is that because Hezbollah's rockets are rudimentary and lack sophisticated guidance systems they are as good as indiscriminate. That conclusion is wrong both logically and semantically. As I have tried to show, the rockets are mostly not indiscriminate (though presumably some misfire, as do Israeli missiles); rather, they are not precise.

This, according to Human Rights Watch, still makes Hezbollah's rocket attacks war crimes. That may be true, but it of course also means Israel's missile strikes and bombardment of Lebanon are war crimes on the same or a greater scale. Hezbollah's strikes against civilians may be intentional or they may be the result of inaccurate guidance systems trying to hit military targets. Israel's strikes against civilians are either intentional or the result of accurate guidance systems and very faulty, to the point of reckless, military intelligence.

Finally, what about the defense offered by Israel's supporters that its air force tries to avoid harming Lebanese civilians by leafleting them before an attack to warn them that they must leave? The argument's thrust is that only those who belong to Hezbollah or give it succor remain behind in south Lebanon and they are therefore legitimate targets. (It ignores, of course, hundreds of civilians killed in areas that have not been leafleted or who were trying to flee, as ordered, when hit by an Israeli missile.)

Hezbollah, of course, has done precisely the same. In speeches, its leader Hassan Nasrallah has repeatedly warned Israeli residents of areas like Haifa, Afula, Hadera, and Tel Aviv that Hezbollah will hit these cities with rockets days before it has actually done so. Hezbollah can claim just as fairly that it has given Israelis fair warning of its attacks on civilian communities, and that any who remain have only themselves to blame.

This debate is important because it will determine in the coming months and years who will be blamed by the international community – and future historians – for committing war crimes. Hezbollah deserves as fair a hearing as Israel, though at the moment it most certainly is not getting it.

Like every army in a war, Hezbollah may not be acting in a humane manner. But it is demonstrably acting according to the same standards as the Israeli army – and possibly, given Israel's siting of military targets in civilian areas, higher ones. The fact that the contrary view is almost universally held betrays our prejudices rather than anything about Hezbollah's acts.
 

CapaJr

I Will Learn To Respect My Fellow Man, Even If It
Red Card
I m %100 muslim. and proud of it.
And i comdemn Israel , and its intentions in the middle east.
however, i also cannot understand, and agree with all those terror attempts.
Islam is a religion of passion. passion for god, passion for humanity..
How can a muslim, if he calls himself one, can kill innocent human beings?
all those plane crashes and stuff, how are they sleeping at night, when they know they will kill a 5-6 years old school girl, or a baby, because of a belief.
and if both sides kill innocent human beings, what should i do? whom should i support.
i hate my fellow muslims getting killed , but i also cannot accept the way they punish its enemies, with killing several thousand innocent civilians at once.
i dunno man i m too high for this ****.
 

The_Knight

Senior Squad
Corrupted socialist governments, economical failure, unemployment, lack of religious conscience, no hope of any future ---> Extremism. Add to this desperation coctail, a war where hundreds of muslims are being killed (possibly lost a family there?), by a foreign government. Take this ignorant thug in these circumstances, fueled by an unjust (WMDs?) war headlines, and convince him that the people of these countries are guilty as well, and that he will be rewarded for ridding them, and you have a terrorist on ur hand.

Never mind Islam, the Qur'an, Prophet Muhammed's narrations, never mind "He who harms 'a person in peace' (a civilian) is my enemy (adversary) on the day of judgement". Never mind anything.

Blind and ignorant. And deeply rooted.
And ultimately, disasterous.
 

Krypton X

Senior Squad
I think Kofi Annan put it best: "The parallel crises in Lebanon and Gaza over the past few weeks have demonstrated, once again, that there are no military solutions to this conflict. War is not, and I repeat, war is not “the continuation of politics by other means”. On the contrary, it represents a catastrophic failure of political skill and imagination – a dethronement of peaceful politics from the primacy which it should enjoy. Only political solutions will be sustainable in the long term. Only comprehensive solutions can bring lasting peace."

A month of fighting hasn't done much for either side, the only real difference is this...


 


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