Manchester United Thread [2011/2012]

[Pogba4Now]

Vidic isn't age, the guy is younger than me.

And how many 50m+ transfers do you think happen in the world, Nady? Even assuming you mean Euros and not Pounds (which I'm not sure about) there have only been 8 ever (5 if you mean GBP). 4 have been by Real Madrid, and in the case of 3 others the club has regretted it immediately (Zlatan, Sheva, Torres). The other one was Buffon.

IMO spending over 30m Euros on a player isn't value for the money and instead of spending 50m GBP on one player who flops like Chelsea, you could drop 20m Euros on 3 different players. Once you get to around 25-30m you're dealing with a major international and there's not much need to go up to 50+++ because the ability won't be that much higher and the money is going to be essentially wasted. It also baffles me that United spend so much money on home grown players when A) they have the best stocked academy in England brimming with homegrown talent ready to break through (Cleverly, Welbeck, Pogba, Rafael, Fabio) and Foreign players are cheaper.

Ok 50 millions is exaggerated. But my point is that despite the Ronaldo money, we are not spending like we should. We are not spending as much as other clubs in the same tenure when it is clear that we need players in the middle. Part of it has to be Fergie's stubbornness as well though. He could have got Ozil for 13 millions or VDV for 10 millions for example.

 

[Sir Calumn]

Ok 50 millions is exaggerated. But my point is that despite the Ronaldo money, we are not spending like we should. We are not spending as much as other clubs in the same tenure when it is clear that we need players in the middle. Part of it has to be Fergie's stubbornness as well though. He could have got Ozil for 13 millions or VDV for 10 millions for example.

You dont have the Ronaldo money, you are spending 45m per annum just servicing the interest payments on Glazer debt. The year you sold Ronaldo, your total annual profit was only 10m, you havent broken even since.

I was looking at the Man Utd team recently and thinking "if I was building a team from scratch, which of these players would I take?". Rooney and Nani, maybe Vidic if he wasnt so old and injury prone, but that's about it. Hernandez for the bench. But compare that with City where there's probably about eight I would take and it should be a little worrying for Utd fans. Unfortunately you do seem to be stuck in a situation where each time a player is sold or retires, he is replaced by someone slightly worse.

 

[Pogba4Now]

^ Evra is worldclass too. But yeah I agree, the rest is average at best. They are either declining (Giggs, Ferdinand) or are still developing.

It’s not all doom and gloom though. We’ve still got a good squad and without having to worry about UCL now, we can concentrate on the FA Cup and the league. I'd be happy if we just won the FA Cup.

 

[Sir Calumn]

Oh yes I would take Evra also. I mean, it is difficult the criticize a lot of Ferguson's signings, Jones IS a bargain at 16m, he's just not ready yet and not being played in the right position. Ashley Young WAS a good deal, especially when you think that Liverpool paid a lot more for Downing. But the overall trend of the team is going in the wrong direction. I mean, we criticize City for splashing the cash but inside it all they have actually managed to get some extremely good value. 23m or whatever it was for Dzeko, 22m for Nasri (admittedly in last year of contract), Silva for 30m (he is not that much less good than Ronaldo in all honesty), Kompany for 6m!!!! (easily as good as anyone centre back in the EPL), even Aguero....... I mean, I know they've also had their howlers, but really no other team has managed to get value like that on more than one or two players (eg Suarez, Mata) in a while. Just two of those players would completely change Man Utd and probably win you the league, so the question remains why didnt Ferguson spot them, or spot any like them?

 

[Sir Calumn]

And lets look at the other players not yet at top clubs which we KNOW will be great - Hazard, Hamsik, Gotze, Cavani, Neymar etc - why is it that maybe chelsea will get one, arsenal one and city three, but that NONE will go to Man Utd?

 

[ShiftyPowers]

I think Evra might be past it, but I'd take Jones, Anderson, Cleverly, Welbeck, Pogba, and De Gea too. Maybe Ashley Young, but it's a toss up. I think United made some bad decisions regarding squad compositions (bad decisions that are being repeated by Chelsea even worse than Man U), but they're in a good position. When you're turning over almost an entire squad you shouldn't be expected to win the league. I don't think it's nearly as bad as they think, although the number of injuries is one concerning thing for sure.

First they need to move to a 4-2-3-1; Fergie seems to realize this, yet not realize it; it's weird. Next, I think they need to place no expectations on this season and let the kids just go out and play. If that means Europa League, then it means Europa League. No more Carrick, no more Giggs (sorry old chap), no more Rio. No one ever learned to ride a bike with the training wheels on, and these kids need to go through some trials before they come out as world beaters.

Finally, Wayne Rooney is without a doubt one of the top 10 players on the planet. You need to build the team around him, not with him just playing a role like everybody else.

But whatever, I don't watch United much, I just play a lot of FM.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

And lets look at the other players not yet at top clubs which we KNOW will be great - Hazard, Hamsik, Gotze, Cavani, Neymar etc - why is it that maybe chelsea will get one, arsenal one and city three, but that NONE will go to Man Utd?

Combined with your post above this, I think it flows into what I was saying. All of those guys are foreign stars, but United have purchased almost exclusively within the Premiership for years. And when they go outside it is a questionable purchase, for example a 20 year old rail thin keeper.

That's not even getting to the incredible talent Fergie has inexplicably given up on in the last 4 years

Ron-Robert Zieler
Zoran Tosic
Adem Ljalic
Gerard Pique
Giuseppe Rossi

You know how much money you save if you keep those guys around? No De Gea transfer, no Young transfer, no Valencia transfer, no Smalling transfer, and no Berbatov transfer. Could you use that money back?

And in all honesty he seemed ready to ship out Welbeck and Cleverly too, and at the moment Pogba doesn't have a contract while Italian clubs sniff around.

 

[poet11]

I agree with Shifty and I feel it was more bad transfer decisions(value for money and not prioritising important areas) at times than financial restrictions. Example- You got David De Gea for 18m and Stekelenburg went to Roma for 6(not sure). Compare the success you had with VDS with before VDS....you'll find how important it was to replace him with minimum risk. The kid might turn out to be good but was it worth the risk? Like although Szczesny made a few howlers at the start he had this presence and confidense about him.......

The issue with your midfield was pretty apparent for sometime. Cleverly has become a superstar already after playing just a few games.

(Shoudn't have let gone of O'shea....and we shouldn't of let gone of Eboue)

 

[Sir Calumn]

I think Evra might be past it, but I'd take Jones, Anderson, Cleverly, Welbeck, Pogba, and De Gea too. Maybe Ashley Young, but it's a toss up. I think United made some bad decisions regarding squad compositions (bad decisions that are being repeated by Chelsea even worse than Man U), but they're in a good position. When you're turning over almost an entire squad you shouldn't be expected to win the league. I don't think it's nearly as bad as they think, although the number of injuries is one concerning thing for sure.

I was talking about putting together a title challenging team. Jones, Cleverly, Welbeck all have potential but really are far from the finished article. Anderson, I've never really rated him. And De Gea - isnt the whole point of keepers that they cut their teeth at clubs where they have a lot of shots to save and are constantly involved in the game, then move to big clubs later when they are already experienced shot stoppers and also worked on their concentration ready for the sudden change of having long periods of play where they're not involved at all? Maybe you should not be DISAPPOINTED if you dont win the league, but you should be challenging for it, especially at a time when it is crucial that everything be done to reign in Man City so they dont gain so much momentum they are uncatchable for years. Also, I dont care whether they're turning over a new squad or not, a Man Utd team that fails to qualify from the group stages of the champions league is a Man Utd team that's failed. Also, squads should be turned over gradually, nothing this sudden. If Ferguson's kids dont work, he cant blame the fact they are kids - he chose to play them and (in some cases) to buy them when the money could have been spent elsewhere!

Finally, Wayne Rooney is without a doubt one of the top 10 players on the planet. You need to build the team around him, not with him just playing a role like everybody else.

I agree with this to an extent, but these days everyone has one of the top players on the planet. Arsenal have Van Persie, City have several, Chelsea have Torres (alright alright but he should be!) and the same is true of the big European sides they will have to face. To have a team built around one of the best players in the world is not enough any more, you also need one or two of the second best group of players in the world!

 

[Sir Calumn]

Combined with your post above this, I think it flows into what I was saying. All of those guys are foreign stars, but United have purchased almost exclusively within the Premiership for years. And when they go outside it is a questionable purchase, for example a 20 year old rail thin keeper.

That's not even getting to the incredible talent Fergie has inexplicably given up on in the last 4 years

Ron-Robert Zieler
Zoran Tosic
Adem Ljalic
Gerard Pique
Giuseppe Rossi

You know how much money you save if you keep those guys around? No De Gea transfer, no Young transfer, no Valencia transfer, no Smalling transfer, and no Berbatov transfer. Could you use that money back?

And in all honesty he seemed ready to ship out Welbeck and Cleverly too, and at the moment Pogba doesn't have a contract while Italian clubs sniff around.

Yes I agree with both your points here. I have never understood this paradox with Ferguson - he will pay over the odds for players from the EPL and english players just because they are proven to be up to the physical challenge of the premier league, but he will also happily play youngsters in key games who are not proven at that level at all. It doesnt seem to make sense. Now more than ever it is so important not to miss out on the foreign talent, because if he doesnt get them there's a good chance his rivals will. Yet this January his top target is apparantly Rodwell at 20m...

And yeah, the players he has let go of beggars belief, considering they went for similar amounts of money that were paid for the likes of Kleberson, Djemba Djemba, Obertan and Bebe. You'd think even if he was unsure about the potential of those players, he'd at least give them a shot considering any money from them was only wasted anyway....

 

[Sir Calumn]

I agree with Shifty and I feel it was more bad transfer decisions(value for money and not prioritising important areas) at times than financial restrictions. Example- You got David De Gea for 18m and Stekelenburg went to Roma for 6(not sure). Compare the success you had with VDS with before VDS....you'll find how important it was to replace him with minimum risk. The kid might turn out to be good but was it worth the risk? Like although Szczesny made a few howlers at the start he had this presence and confidense about him.......

The issue with your midfield was pretty apparent for sometime. Cleverly has become a superstar already after playing just a few games.

(Shoudn't have let gone of O'shea....and we shouldn't of let gone of Eboue)

Nah clinging onto O'Shea would have been yet another example of clinging onto a player past his best, he would have just got in the way. I cant believe Carrick was offered a new contract, surely Ferguson could have got Steve Bruce to pay some money for him too, and Gibson, and then his ranks would be some way towards being cleared of the mediocrity which infects them. And yeah, Skeletenburg was only 6, though whether thats what Man Utd would have been charged given their situation is another question. For 20m, a very similar price to De Gea, they could have activated the release clause on Reina, and he is not old and has so much Premier League and Champions League experience.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Yes I agree with both your points here. I have never understood this paradox with Ferguson - he will pay over the odds for players from the EPL and english players just because they are proven to be up to the physical challenge of the premier league, but he will also happily play youngsters in key games who are not proven at that level at all. It doesnt seem to make sense. Now more than ever it is so important not to miss out on the foreign talent, because if he doesnt get them there's a good chance his rivals will. Yet this January his top target is apparantly Rodwell at 20m...

And yeah, the players he has let go of beggars belief, considering they went for similar amounts of money that were paid for the likes of Kleberson, Djemba Djemba, Obertan and Bebe. You'd think even if he was unsure about the potential of those players, he'd at least give them a shot considering any money from them was only wasted anyway....

Fergie has been the absolute best coach (possibly ever) at evolving along with shifting paradigms. Which is why it is so odd that he doesn't seem to realize that the "physical" has been slowly removed from the English game. Sure it's more physically taxing than Spain, but surely no more than Germany, and that doesn't stop the Bundesliga from producing "continental" players. City should be showing Ferguson the path to salvation is through continentals, not making him cling even harder to "Britishness" which has always been a recipe for disaster since about 1930.

United are one of the most "continental" sides in England, this is true, however when it comes to Europe they are still very English by comparison. Truth is you can't win in Europe by being bigger and stronger, this is a lesson Fergie learned 15 years ago; the English game has moved a good deal in that direction and soon he won't be able to win the Premiership by being bigger, stronger, and WANTING IT MORE.

 

[Sir Calumn]

Fergie has been the absolute best coach (possibly ever) at evolving along with shifting paradigms. Which is why it is so odd that he doesn't seem to realize that the "physical" has been slowly removed from the English game. Sure it's more physically taxing than Spain, but surely no more than Germany, and that doesn't stop the Bundesliga from producing "continental" players. City should be showing Ferguson the path to salvation is through continentals, not making him cling even harder to "Britishness" which has always been a recipe for disaster since about 1930.

United are one of the most "continental" sides in England, this is true, however when it comes to Europe they are still very English by comparison. Truth is you can't win in Europe by being bigger and stronger, this is a lesson Fergie learned 15 years ago; the English game has moved a good deal in that direction and soon he won't be able to win the Premiership by being bigger, stronger, and WANTING IT MORE.

Well, I'm not one of these people that thinks now the only way to succeed as a football team is to play like Barcelona. Of course, everyone would like to play like Barcelona (and it seems pretty obvious that Abramovic for one has told AVB that's what he wants), but not every group of players can play like that, not every group are at their best playing like that. City have done an excellent job combining that new brand of football which is all about little, quick, agile reflex players whilst retaining some big bastards so they don't get pushed around. There is still a place for strength and physicality in football - it's just about finding the right balance, and Ferguson hasn't found it. A player like Yaya Toure would have just as big an impact on Utd as a player like Samir Nasri.

It is still a fact that the Premier League is more physical and competitive than the others, even than Germany (this is because the weaker teams in the EPL are more competitive than the weaker teams in Germany), and it is also still the case, in my opinion, that being generally stronger sides than our European rivals is an advantage for us, just as having less technically proficient players is a disadvantage. We have to play to our strengths. It is no coincidence that up til recently Arsenal have struggled most of the English teams in the CL, and that it is also Arsenal which most desperately try and imitate 'continental' football.

But, we need to find a balance. We need to keep that strength and physicality, but mix the flair and technical skill of the continent in. City have realised this, Chelsea have realised it but gone about it the wrong way, Man Utd still dont seem to have even realised.

 

[poet11]

Nah clinging onto O'Shea would have been yet another example of clinging onto a player past his best, he would have just got in the way. I cant believe Carrick was offered a new contract, surely Ferguson could have got Steve Bruce to pay some money for him too, and Gibson, and then his ranks would be some way towards being cleared of the mediocrity which infects them. And yeah, Skeletenburg was only 6, though whether thats what Man Utd would have been charged given their situation is another question. For 20m, a very similar price to De Gea, they could have activated the release clause on Reina, and he is not old and has so much Premier League and Champions League experience.

Can't disagree there but regarding O'Shea....I think its important to note that he played anywhere everythere when needed and 'did the job' even though he was nothing spectacular. I admit its not the most important issue but when theres an injury crisis....you miss such players.

Carrick.....I think is still there only midfield player who can keep the ball.

 

[Sir Calumn]

Yes having those journeymen is useful, but really what I think Ferguson should be doing is using his youngsters to do that covering job and have better, established players in the first team. Like, rather than starting every match, Smalling and Jones should be the cover there ready for when there's an injury and there should be someone better starting.

Another player that really needs to go is Johnny Evans, top clubs cant remain top clubs if they are riddled with mediocre players. Evans has a big future at Stoke.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

It is still a fact that the Premier League is more physical and competitive than the others, even than Germany (this is because the weaker teams in the EPL are more competitive than the weaker teams in Germany)

That is definitely not true. More physical, perhaps a little, but NOT more competitive. The 18 team league helps with the competitive balance, but Gladbach are 1 point off the top right now despite being in a relegation playoff with the 3rd place team from the Second Division in May. Schalke were 13th last year and CL Semi Finalists.

 

[Sir Calumn]

That is definitely not true. More physical, perhaps a little, but NOT more competitive. The 18 team league helps with the competitive balance, but Gladbach are 1 point off the top right now despite being in a relegation playoff with the 3rd place team from the Second Division in May. Schalke were 13th last year and CL Semi Finalists.

Ok I see what you mean, I meant competitiveness in terms of style of play rather than league position, as I believe that overall the standard of the players in the German league is considerably lower than in the EPL and that is why the teams are so close, and the results so unpredictable.

 

[RockShow]

Ill take fergies logic over any of you guys any day of the week. he has been building championship teams for years. to be second guessing his philosophy seems like a waste of time. the man knows his **** and has been producing for 25+ years. and id be willing to bet he would beat the lot of you at football manager as well.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

No he wouldn't win at football manager. Just no. And according to you coaches can't be second guessed? Even with the benefit of hindsight? That's going to make for an interesting message board. Did the best we could, huzzah chaps! Going down to the second division, but Mister knows everything.

 

[Sir Calumn]

If everyone was like RockShow Qaddafi would still be in power.