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Why close the damned "CHEAT" thread???

S

simonp_ccfc

Club Supporter
Its bad enough not being able to have a healthy debate on the official MZ forums. Now your closing them on here as well!!!

Anyone notice how boring the MZ forums have become AGAIN since the thought police closed all the threads just becasue they could'nt handle the truth.

The fact of the matter is the cheat tactic is one of the biggest issues in the game at the moment and so we have every right to debate it, no matter how 'healthy' the debate is.

The only reason these debates were closed on MZ was because those who can close them are the same people who use the tactic. They knew they could not defend there use of the tactic and chose the easy way out and closed the threads. Don't give me bollox that they were closed for any other reason!

And I would also lke to say I fully support ASH and agree with everything he wrote in the editorial on the front page. No matter what the legitimacies (or lack of) of the cheat tactic nobody can argue that MZ is a poorer place because of them. NObody bothers to make there own tactic anymore. They just copy the rest of the sheep. Tactically the game is as weak as it has ever been and it is all becasue of the cheat tactic.

I hope I am allowed to debate this issue in here. I am not insulting anyone. I am telling it as it is. If it makes those who use it feel guilty for using it then TOUGH. Handle it or come back with a valid reason for using it. Don't do what others choose to do in the MZ forums and close the threads cos they could'nt handle some healthy debate. PATHETIC!!!
 
A

Ash

Senior Squad
I actually closed the one on here because it wasn't so much a debate about the cheat tactic, but me and Steve arguing.

Feel free to discuss the tactic here (and even call it the ch word if you want ;)). Opinions are allowed.

And I would also lke to say I fully support ASH and agree with everything he wrote in the editorial on the front page.
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Thanks :)

I've had people tell me they've changed their opinion about the cheat tactic after reading it. Must have been persuasive :D
 
U

UpTheIrons

Club Supporter
Your use of capital letters highlighting words show that your intentions are to belittle other managers and offend them.

If you and other members on both forums aimed an argument that failed to include an irreverent range of words then progress would be made in debating this contraversial issue, however when people like yourself come out with scathing attacks generalising all managers which use a 4-3-3 and brand them as "Cheaters".

Cheaters create double teams and transfer teams between one another in order to raise their main teams financial status.

The 4-3-3 tactic used on Managerzone uses an unusually high defence. Now I take it you play CM4, and there are with and without ball screens. I'm not sure how the MZ tactics page works wether or not the overview screen is your players are positioned in the positions you have placed them in with or without posession, if without then think of the back four as a line moving up to the half way line creating an offside trap. If with posession, then simply think of it as the offside trap and as the players are bunched up, then it could also indicate the opposition has a tight space to work in.

Then is the 4-3-3 such a flaw in the Managerzone tactical engine that the opposition can't break through because the way the tactical engine is set benefits the passing and defensive approach to football? I don't believe that the tactic exploits a flaw in the tactic engine.

I have beaten two teams this week who have been using the 4-3-3 tactic with a 5-3-2. It's not impossible to beat, I don't have the benefits of using the 'MZ analyser' and 'MZ live' but by committing myself to the tactic engine of MZ, and reviewing the statistics and graphs provided by G00fy's 'Manzone' I have been able to find a tactic to break down the 4-3-3 as the heavy presence of the 5-3-2 defence breaks down the oppositions long balls, and by using long balls myself against their sparse back four, I am able to exploit the 4-3-3's weaknesses.

I think the critics need to review their comments and stop tarring those who opt to use the 4-3-3 with the same brush as those who are genuine cheaters.

Maybe if the critics who look for the bad thing's to pick holes in managers choice of words were more accurate than such those of the dead end "cheat", and maybe if the supporters who looked for the good thing's in it, or more known as idealists were to not respond until the critics proposed a debate in a respectful manager other than the yawnorama "cheat" ABU that is so regularly talked of.

Personally I think we should call an MZ Managers meeting in England to discuss it seeing as over the internet people are extremely confident, maybe those who are so gung-ho over the net would be reluctant to brand people as cheaters to their faces which means progress will be made. Hiring out a function room above a pub on a Saturday, people apply, and 50 of those will be selected to make the trip to England's capital, London and then that would give managers the chance to discuss the various issues.
 
S

Swish

Youth Team
Simon, you know why the thread was closed. So please dont try and feed the general public of the SG forums all the nonsense you wrote above.

Your truth is your own, and different to mine (and PLENTY of other members), therefore your morals are different to everyone elses, alas, we are all different.

But to point out a so called flaw in the sim, just cos you cant seem to win any of your games with your mediocre players is not anyones fault but your bad management. As for sheep following the herd, its nothing to do with that, members just want to win.

I cant wait until the day they change the sim, hopefully my players will actually be able to perform to their standards, as they are not surpassing any expectations that they have set in this past.

As for me closing your thread, I dont primarily think that the 4-3-3 is my best tactic. What also gripes me, is that all that have tried the tactic and it didnt work for them, means they result in turning to the public and try to disgrace them all by calling them cheats. Now, for this tactic to work, you need certain players in certain positions, it is not at all a 'throw all yer players in that formation' as it clearly doesnt work. If you had speedy wingers with a good cross ball attribute, does that mean you are cheating by using those players in a position that best suits them?

Now, due to you all complaining about it being a cheat, or to put it another way, when you dont have the right players for it, you try and hype yourselves up to try and make it sound as if you are better than everyone else, when you are clearly on equal grounds as everyone else.

I used to respect you type of members a lot, but by your constant whining, you just make yourself look jealous.

You complain about teams worse than you, were beating you. Well, as you so proudly put it, your team was reaching great cup runs and mine was going out in almost every first round. My team is about 3x as greater than yours, that seem fair? You were getting into later rounds that you clearly didnt deserve to be in. Did I whinge about it and blame it all on a tactic? no.

You all give that tactic far too much respect, claiming there is no counter attack tactic. Well, there is, I have one. So does the member above, clearly. But due to the fact that you invent your own tactics, you have never found this tactic. What does that say about your managerial skills? That you are inventive? Yes. That you can co-ordinate your own players to see where they best go? Obviously not.

Your thread was banned for a lot of reasons, none of them were included in the crap you labelled above.

And judging by your snide remarks aimed at me in the forum today, proves that you are still being as childish as ever about the incident that happened last week.

Sure, go ahead and curse members left, right and center in this forum. I dont run it, Ash and Blue do, but dont worry, they are on your side ;)

But as I explained to you in your first little pointless ranting post, until you can find me an official statement by crew saying that the mentioned 4-3-3 is in fact a cheat and anyone caught using it is a cheater, you are falsely accusing members, members for which I ensure to protect from your slurs.

Your thread was closed seeing as you couldnt handle to not break any of the rules. You still had to continue and push it. I didnt close your threads, you did that yourself, you had a warning.

I couldnt care less about the threads, I found them threads quite amusing, but everyone just got bored with your repetitiveness and your accusations that everybody was a cheater and that you were a saint. Just cos you dont use the tactic, doesnt mean everyone shouldnt use it. Thats life.

Crew are fixing your problem seeing as so many are complaining about it, so it will be hopefully rectified as soon as possible. I even mentioned to crew to try and get something done by round 7, but holded back my protest after another of your selfish little arguements. The simulator is being worked on, and will be released before the beginning of next season. And I cant wait to thrash your team with it, just to show you that the only reasons teams are top, are because they actually have better players than your teams. But Im betting this time next season, you will be back again, complaining about another 'flaw' in the sim, and then trying to protest against it.

One of your most amusing threads was the fact that you wished for everyone to respect members like you and play fairly. We are all making the best of what we got, you have that option to do the same, but you would rather pretend that your team could beat anyone with the same tactic, and the only reason you are losing is because you are playing a 'real' tactic.

Tell you what, if you can rise to the challenge.
I will play you twice. 1st game we will both use the 4-3-3 and the 2nd game I will use your so called 'normal' tactic. If you have that much confidence in your teams ability, you will accept. But I hardly doubt that you will.

Until then, spam these forums as much as you want. As I said, I dont run them. But dont spam the forums I do run, cos the ice underneath your feet will break.
 
A

Ash

Senior Squad
Steve I think you're missing the point.

It's not about how good our players are. The annoying thing is all the top teams including yourself use this tactic which is generally considered to be better than others. So if your teams are so much better why not use the regular tactics and beat us with them (as you did in the league. I have no complaints about the league game from Sunday. If anything it proves my point)

Yes there are tactics that can be used to counter them, but they are useless against normal tactics, so unless you know for sure that your opponent will use it. it's useless.

And I cant wait to thrash your team with it, just to show you that the only reasons teams are top, are because they actually have better players than your teams.
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And that will prove? I know that you have a better team than me, as you've beaten me 99% of the times we've played. Your team would win even if you didn't use it. Congratulations. So why do you still use it?

I will play you twice. 1st game we will both use the 4-3-3 and the 2nd game I will use your so called 'normal' tactic. If you have that much confidence in your teams ability, you will accept. But I hardly doubt that you will.
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I'm sure you will win, but again what does that prove? That you have a good team that can win 4-3-3 vs 4-3-3 games and normal v normal. What would be more interesting is if you had home team useing normal vs away team using 4-3-3. See what happens then.
 
S

Swish

Youth Team
Ash, my post wasnt directed to you mate.

Give me one good reason though, why I should use a 'normal' tactic that isnt effective as the tactic as theirs? I will be at a disadvantage, and thus not using my team to the best of their ability.

And what does it prove? Well, Simon said that his team always loses to teams that are better than him, and I must have a really weak team if I play the normal tactic. Which lets face it, I dont.

And yes, those counter tactics are useless against normal tactics (60% of the time), but thats where the managerial know-how comes into play. Get this, I actually look at the teams im about to play and then see where they play and how much they are worth, then its pretty simple to work out a rough idea of that players skills.

Then I alter my tactic a bit to try and make the best use of my players against his. Which I will quickly remind you, is not cheating.

e.g. with the estimating a players skill attributes, take a 19 year old striker, worth 200k

Now, thats about 6-7 balls in shooting with possibly 3-4 balls in ball control/play intell. Nobody will train a youth that had 4 balls in keeping in any other skill than keeping, so we can rule out that he has high keeping skills.

Its just using knowledge you are provided. Thats what makes a manager.

Im being accused of being a member that uses a cheat tactic. But look at it from our point of view for once, we are just using the same tools as everyone else.

Moral. Thats all it is. You are faithful to the real game of football. But the truth is, this is NOT the real game of football. This is a game BASED on the beautiful game. Things here are done differently. Those little men on the pitch, they really dont have real lives, family, houses, IQ's of 120+
They are just little values running around a simulated pitch. Crew are still not fully experienced in creating these sims. But they are getting better. And maybe in 10 years time, the sim will be more advanced than football itself.

But for now, there is a way you can get your defending men to run to the half way line on the attack (which I can assure you, happens in real life). The only thing that makes the tactic so effective, is that the opposing teams strikers keep getting caught offside (remember the IQ of 120+, yeah, they dont have that). So thats what makes it so great. The attackers, middies get stuck right into the team and keep pressing them in their half. The only way the other team can win, is having its defenders booting the ball in the other half and hope the strikers get there before the defenders do, and they can and do.

I bet you both used long balls when it was popular, I bet you both didnt use to used wingers when it was classed as next to pointless. I bet you both didnt bother training players in play intelligence or passing when they were deemed useless.

So why pick faults with this one? Is it purely because your teams cant pay it very well? If thats the case, then thats a pretty pointless rant you are having. Simon used to use the 4-3-3, and Im sure you have tried it at some point Ash.

A lot of people tried it and did find it worked well for their team, and understandably, kept it. Then you guys come out and slur it, disgust it, and generally try to make it the most dirtiest thing since the clap. All because your team sucked at it?

As I said to Simon. People play this game to win, thats competition for you. And yes, believe it or not, but most people will goto ANY lengths to acheive their goals. One of which is using a tactic that seems the most productive of results in the game. I said to hate the sim, not the managers. Thats understandable, it can only get better with time, but that doesnt gives you both (and the rest of you) the right to link it with the word cheat. Its not acceptable. Its an opinion, granted. But you both know the rules about expressing certain opinions in the forums.

You probably both have the opinion that im a twat. Does that give you both to start a thread in the forums on MZ with the title 'nemesis01 is a twat'? Of course not. Yes, you are allowed opinions, and on here, you can have them. Thats what makes an unofficial forum all the more fun. But I cant let you both express these opinions in the forums. Not against my rules, but against MZ rules.
 
A

Ash

Senior Squad
I know it wasn't aimed at me but I thought since alot of it applies to me (crap team, bitching in the forums about 4-3-3 etc) I'd reply to it.
 
A

Ash

Senior Squad
And yes, those counter tactics are useless against normal tactics (60% of the time), but thats where the managerial know-how comes into play. Get this, I actually look at the teams im about to play and then see where they play and how much they are worth, then its pretty simple to work out a rough idea of that players skills.
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I look at the team I'm about to play too. I looked at your team and saw you were using the 4-3-3 so I set up a counter tactic that worked well in the few games I played against the 4-3-3. Then when the big game came you changed to a normal tactic (good :D) when I was using the counter tactic (bad :() which was useless against the normal tactic.

So why pick faults with this one? Is it purely because your teams cant pay it very well? If thats the case, then thats a pretty pointless rant you are having. Simon used to use the 4-3-3, and Im sure you have tried it at some point Ash.
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I didn't use that. I used a similar style but 3-4-3. It did work very well but I saw from the point of view of the opposition who were using normal tactics and I felt like I was cheating them out of the opportunity for a fair match.

I said to hate the sim, not the managers. Thats understandable, it can only get better with time, but that doesnt gives you both (and the rest of you) the right to link it with the word cheat. Its not acceptable.
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I've never called anyone who uses the tactic a cheat. I've said the tactic is a cheat. I know you seem to think I've been insulting you and calling you a cheat, but I don't think I have, and if I implied that then I'm sorry because that wasn't what I meant.
 
B

Bluecoaster

Reserve Team
Why don't you guys just give it up? I already said in the MZ forums I am giving the topic up as it just doesn't have a point. People not using THE tactic can't convince the other one it's better, people using it can't convince us it's better to use it, so why not drop it, I'm getting tired of the pointless discussion.

Ofcourse, this doesn't mean I wont let you have a nice healthy arguement :)

This (and any other) topic will stay open as long as there isn't an excessive jump off the topic or someone starts insulting anybody else (which we all agree would also be pointless).

I'll keep an eye on the topic though and close it if needed.

Blue
 
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