Spain vs Italy [P+R+Why Italy Will Win]

Discussion in 'Soccer Forum' started by Sevillista, Jun 18, 2008.

  1. Rocky

    Rocky Forza Suarez! (ps brotha can you spare a dime?)

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    Pirlo>Totti

    Totti wouldn't have made a difference. The only good spell he had with Italy was during Euro 2000. Besides that he was never able to translate his club form to the international level except on a few occasions. Pirlo's creativity was what was missing during the game against Spain.
     
  2. newbie original

    newbie original We apologize for keeping the yellow too long Yellow Card

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    Yes. His absence almost made the midfield "feel" bare.....
     
  3. Yossarian

    Yossarian Fan Favourite

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    bro, as much as I love Pirlo, it's ludicrous to claim that he exceedes Totti in any aspect when it comes to the offensive side of the ball. Pirlo is clearly smarter and more tactically aware, but there are a few players who carry the aura and immense game changing abilities that Totti has.....this is one of the greatest creative forces and offensive minds of our generation were talking about, man



    It's entirely speculative and unprovable to say that Totti would've carried his past national team form into this competition, right? Because he could've just as easily have brought the remarkable level of play that he was putting on in the league into this competition and have had immeasurable impact on the team's overall peformance.

    Bad form can always be reversed and enhanced for the better....it can just as easily be recovered as it was lost, but lack of talent can't just be modified and bettered with the snap of a finger, man.


    ---------------------------------Toni

    -------Del Piero------------------------------Totti

    ------------------De Rossi------------Pirlo

    --------------------------Gattuso

    ----Chiellini-----Canna--------Materazzi----------Zambrotta

    ---------------------------------Buffon



    NOW THAT'S A ******* LINEUP more than capable of lifting the cup.
     
  4. modena_10

    modena_10 Senior Squad

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    i will say that i missed totti. i won't compare totti and pirlo, i really can't see how you compare them. i think with both of them in the side we could have achieved some more positive football but its all hindsight. they bring completely different aspects to the game. the only real problem was finding the right system to play them together in.

    honestly, i love the lineup yoss but if there is something we gotta learn from this tournament is that we need to get younger. the average age of that team is probably 31-32. i do think if we can find the right blend of experience and youth we can take a good run at WC2010.

    and now with the return of the great lippi, who knows if he will hold his loyalties to the players of past successes or look to the future.
     
  5. Rocky

    Rocky Forza Suarez! (ps brotha can you spare a dime?)

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    Totti wouldn't have changed Italy's fortunes because like I said, he could never translate his club form on the international level except on some occasions. This is the same guy who would fake injuries to skip international friendlies. There is no doubt he could have been remarkable for Italy, but he didn't want to. He cares more about Roma than Italy. So I will reiterate, Pirlo>Totti in terms effectiveness for the national team.

    Capable of winning the cup? That's a lineup that is more capable of self-destructing than winning. That line-up you got there would be just as old as the one we took to this year's Euros. Have you ever actually watched Italy play, because it's been proven time and time again that Del Piero and Totti could never co-exist on the same playing field. Even if they could, why in the hell do you have them playing wide in a 4-3-3? Totti and Del Piero are more centralized players, they could never adapt to that wide position. Del Piero even voiced his concern about where Donadoni would play him in his 4-3-3 because he wasn't used to playing that outside left in the 4-3-3.

    Materazzi starting? Ha! You're an Inter fan, right? I guess you didn't watch Materazzi against the Netherlands did you? That was probably the last international game he will ever play.

    Finally, you can't start both Pirlo and Totti in the same line-up. One is a deep-lying playmaker and the other is a more advanced playmaker. You can't have both in the line-up, who would play go through? Oh, and I find it absolutely hilarious you tried to compare Pirlo and Totti. Both are two completely different types of playmakers.
     
  6. Zakov

    Zakov Senior Squad

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    sorry to butt in and i agree with most of yer points but u just said, Pirlo>Totti in terms of effectiveness, or is that not a comparison?
     
  7. modena_10

    modena_10 Senior Squad

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    donadoni shot himself in the foot when he changed his formation after the first game. going from 4-3-3 to 4-3-1-2. he didn't have the players for the latter formation. more or less spot players doing the best job they can do to fill in.

    if totti was selected, obviously he would have been slotted just behind the strikers and would have been fine. pirlo and totti can co-exist, just look at the world cup. look at the dutch who have sneijder and van der vaart, it can work. that's why we have gattuso, de rossi etc, to clean up.

    in 06, the play would go from pirlo to totti. or pirlo to either wing back. for this tournament that was probably our biggest problem. pirlo would distribute to players who could not do anything with the ball in attack.

    apparently all we could do was send high balls to toni in the box and hope for the best and because of how good toni is, we had lots of chances...unfortunately no goals. in 06 we were very dangerous with this combo. almost all of our assists and attacks came from either one of their boots. that is one thing lippi did extremely well. he found a way to get our talent on the field and somehow make it work whereas other of our past coaches couldn't.

    now that mr. lippi has returned, i hope for more of the same.
     
  8. Rocky

    Rocky Forza Suarez! (ps brotha can you spare a dime?)

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    Well comparing their effectiveness for the national team, yes Pirlo>Totti, I guess I should have clarified. You can't really compare their abilities because they play two different positions. But Pirlo has always performed better than Totti on the international level.
     
  9. Yossarian

    Yossarian Fan Favourite

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    I've come to the conclusion that you deeply loathe Totti....almost to the point where it's incorrigible no matter what he does. It wasn't my intention here to have a belaboured and unnecessarily repetitive argument about Totti's ability to carry his club form into the NT. All I know is that he's one of the best players in the World at what he does....a magnificently gifted player who is a threat from 25metres on out of the opposing goal. He's got a commanding presence about him on the pitch even when he isn't his best and this allows for other players to profit from all the attention that he receives. So if you think that he wouldn've contributed positively to the squad and eased some of the tension felt by the other players, then you're being unreasonable and willfully dishonest.

    When you're selecting a squad for a NT, the only thing that you can truly go by is the player's current form in whatever league he happens to be playing in. And at the time of his injury, Totti was in peak playing form....if yer gonna make prognostications and extrapolations about how he would've fared in this tourney, then you should be drawing from his most recent condition in league action and not from the sporadic and limited play seen in international competition. You keep adamantly and stubbornly insisting that he would've duplicated the display of some of his past below expectation showings, but how do you know for a fact that this would've happened?


    Put aside your personal gripe with 'em and this baseless and frankly ridiculous accusation that he puts club over country for a moment and judge him solely by his pre injury performance.....was he worthy of being a starter at that time in your eyes? If past showings was the exclusive criterion for choosing players onto a NT squad, then you'd only fill a fourth of your roster because the percentage of World class players who consistently translate their club successes into the international stage isn't all that great, man. The only thing that you can do is to survey your current talent pool, identify the players that are in the best shape and playing form and go on from there. Of course there should be other standards that must be looked at and satisfied, but first concern yourself with spotting the best players in each position prior to the tourney starting.




    I'll concede that I follow the Serie A more closely than I do the NT. I'll watch the qualifiers if they're on, but I don''t go out of my way to seek out meaningless friendlies as I have absolutely no connection with Italy. This is just my fantasy squad that I would've chosen when the first game came around from the players available in the final roster selection with the exception of the injured, of course.

    I don't agree with your absolutist and stringently narrow attitude and perception of what will work and who will not harmoniously exist together out there on the pitch. First of all, this lineup/formation that I propose is very malleable. It's not prefabricated to its drawn up form, bro. It's not a conventional 4-3-3.....DP and Totti are on the shoulders of Toni only because I wouldn't want a formation that's too centralized and narrowed down. They will be able to adjust to whatever the defence throws at them and switch the facilitating and support striker roles in a fluid manner and reposition themselves to their comfort areas whenever the action is in their immediate area.


    I can't comprehend why you keep emphatically asserting that such and such player wont jell and adapt to one another as though they're some sort of highly specialized computer parts or something? Both of these players are two of the greatest and have played with some of the game's best, I don't see why they can't adjust to each other's individual qualities for the common goal of helping each other be successful? They're about as flawless offensively as you can get....what more could you want? Unless if you're privy to off the field chemistry issues that they might have? And even then, they should be mature enough to overcome their differences, I'd imagine.




    hurhur....well, I'm hugely biased towards Materazzi, I must admit. I've been a big proponent of his for a long time, but I don't understand why you're singling him out for the whipping post for that first half performance against the Dutch. The entire team was torched and embarrassed, and the defence continued to be shaky long after he was subbed out, but I'll also concede that yes, he had a poor outing and was unjustly never allowed to redeem himself. This is a player who had a positive impact on your WC run, a man who was without a doubt the best defender in the Serie A last year, so please, don't try to belittle his contributions and quality by erroneously and unfairly putting the entire blame of that first half debacle on his shoulders.






    Here we go again.....your very rigidly over-the-top observations on who's compatible with who. Pirlo is the best playmaker from his position and Totti is one of the best in his role as an advanced complete attacker, but they're so multi-talented and diversified in their abilities, so where does this congruity issue of epic proportions that you're trying to paint come from? You do realize that Pirlo is just a converted (for convenience more than anything else) natural #10 a la Totti and that he used to play in the hole position before being readjusted by Ancelotti? What I'm trying to say is that they've got a lot more similarities than they do differences. Totti has progressed in the offensive side of the game, modifying himself from a playmaker, support striker and now even a lone striker if need be (there's your through man, as well as DP, of course), while Pirlo has maintained his aptitude for playmaking while in the process of developing his defensive and tactical abilities.


    hmm....you argue that the team can do without Totti and that Pirlo can fill in for him in an even more effective manner, yet you curiously laugh at the thought of someone considering their similarities and differences...??? Also, let's be fair, you started this whole thing.


    Anyway, in the formation that I proposed, the offense would be considerably less revolved around Toni, DP and Totti would share the through man role, Pirlo would be the director and distributor of the offense and have a more vertically surging function. Totti would have the freedom to roam and this would be more of a benefit to Pirlo than it would be a detriment because defenses would be less inclined to singularly hone in on him as the primary playmaker, you know? If you've seen how opposing squads treat Pirlo when Seedorf is out, you'd know how advantageous having someone like Totti sharing the pitch with him would be, man......I mean, Kaka and Pirlo function together extremely effectively, right? So why can't Pirlo and Totti? Clearly, Totti is nowhere near as athletic and dynamic as Kaka is, but he's more savvy and equally as gifted offensively.....he can emulate a lot of what Kaka does near the box.



    Lastly, I'd like to know what your formation/lineup would've been for the first game against the Dutch. Injured or unselected players can be used for your favored squad
     
  10. Yossarian

    Yossarian Fan Favourite

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    you guys definitely need to get younger, but I don't think that the process should be forced and executed at the expense of older players who are still producing in at or near peak form e.g.....DP/Totti.....any up and coming talent would kill for the sort of seasons that these two guys have been putting together in their later, more advanced playing days, man.

    I mean, if DP continues on with the form he's been displaying in the last 3-4yrs for the next couple of seasons, should he be relegated to the bench or even left off the South Africa squad just because the Italian NT decides to go on a mission to quickly get younger?


    I realize that he hasn't been nearly as good for the NT as he's been for Juve, but I felt that he deserved better than what he got in this tournament, man. Cmon, Cassano? What the **** did that faggot ever do to be slotted ahead of DP? DI Natale? :icon_spin:
     
  11. Rocky

    Rocky Forza Suarez! (ps brotha can you spare a dime?)

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    I don’t loathe the guy. As a neutral fan, he’s awesome to watch. I was rooting for him and Roma to kick Inter’s ass and beat them to the scudetto when Juve was in Serie B. But as an Azzurri fan, he’s just never been able to play as well as he has for Roma save on some occasions. He would have definitely been picked for the Euro 2008 squad had he made himself available. But he has been injured lately and frankly, he'll be on the wrong side of 30 soon. Not the direction Italy needs to go in.

    Well, obviously you have to go on a player's club form to get a good idea of how he'll fair on the international level, but that's not the only thing you can look at. You have to look at how a player has played on the international level previously. Just look at Raul, left out of the Spain squad despite having a good season for Real. Why? Because he's never played as well as he has for Spain when you compare his performances for his club. I mean even Del Piero was a last minute inclusion in Donadoni's squad despite having his best club season since god knows how long. He too, has never been able to reproduce his Juventus magic for the national team. Some players just aren't made for the international game.



    It was hardly a baseless argument. A number of Azzurri fans share the opinion that Totti puts club>country. This is the guy that said the champion's league quarterfinal against Man Utd was the biggest game of his career when he had just played in the World Cup Final less then a year before. Would I have picked Totti had he not be injured? Sure, why not. Would he have played up to his world class standards? Well, we'll never know.



    You have to trust me when I tell you the Del Piero+Totti experimentation has been tried, and has never really panned out. They're both essentially the same kind of player even if their games do differ slightly. About the narrowness of the formation if you put them more in the middle: That's hardly a problem when you have guys like Grosso and Zambrotta bombing down the wings. The defensive gaps they leave can be covered relatively easy by De Rossi or some other defensive mid. In a perfect world, if you just put Del Piero and Totti more in the middle, that selection would run over every team on the planet.



    You're right, he wasn't the only bad player on the field, but he was certainly our worst. Didn't pick up his man, left huge gaps in defense to be exploited, slow, etc. The defense continued to still look shaky after we subbed him because Barzagli, the 2nd worst player, was kept on the field. You're right when you say Materazzi was the best defender in the 06/07 season, but he was easily one of the worst in the 07/08 season. Injuries certainly didn't help either. All the criticism Materazzi has gotten is fully deserved.






    I still can't see how you can compare them even if they share some of the same abilities. They both play different positions, even if it is essentially, the same kind of role. Just because Pirlo is converted from Totti's position, doesn't make him the same player he was years ago when he played like a traditional #10. That 20 or so yards that separates Pirlo's position and Totti's make a huge difference in how someone plays a specific role such as the main playmaker for your team.


    Pirlo can man Totti's role, he did at the 2006 WC. Totti had a fairly limited role in Lippi's squad compared to his role at Roma. The main playmaker for that Italy team was Pirlo. The reason Pirlo can co-exist with Kaka is simple, Kaka and Totti are not the same kind of player. Kaka isn't a playmaker, he just finishes off what Pirlo starts by making the final pass or scoring if need be. And what exactly did I start? I posted an opinion, you responded and we went from there. As far as I can see this is just a debate.

    For those line-ups your interested in, this is what I would have played if I were Donadoni. Fortunately for me, hindsight is 20/20.

    ------------------------------Toni----------------------------------
    ----------------Del Piero---------------Cassano---------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    -----------------------------Aquilani--------------------------------
    -------------------De Rossi-------Pirlo------------------------------
    --Grosso-----------Chiellini----------Cannavaro------------Zambrotta
     
  12. per75005

    per75005 Reserve Team

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  13. Rocky

    Rocky Forza Suarez! (ps brotha can you spare a dime?)

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    If you have anything meaningful to say, say it. Otherwise, f*ck off.
     
  14. per75005

    per75005 Reserve Team

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    Coooooooooooooool the match is finished... isn't it??? :blah::blah::blah:
     
  15. Rocky

    Rocky Forza Suarez! (ps brotha can you spare a dime?)

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    Right, we should just stop talking about games right after the final whistle is blown.

    :rolleyes:
     
  16. KingPaulV

    KingPaulV Starting XI

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    Well, obviously you have to go on a player's club form to get a good idea of how he'll fair on the international level, but that's not the only thing you can look at. You have to look at how a player has played on the international level previously. Just look at Raul, left out of the Spain squad despite having a good season for Real. Why? Because he's never played as well as he has for Spain when you compare his performances for his club. I mean even Del Piero was a last minute inclusion in Donadoni's squad despite having his best club season since god knows how long. He too, has never been able to reproduce his Juventus magic for the national team. Some players just aren't made for the international game.


    Raul is Spain's all-time leading scorer, His club form was actually rather poor up until last season and he was continually picked to the Spanish NT because he delivered. The debate arose because for the first time in 4 years his club form was up to par and he wasnt picked....not the contrary
     
  17. Rocky

    Rocky Forza Suarez! (ps brotha can you spare a dime?)

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    Oops, my mistake about Raul then.
     
  18. Yossarian

    Yossarian Fan Favourite

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    Hey, man. First of all.....that was a quality reply even if I don't concur with a lot of it. I'm still not persuaded from my major points of contention that this debate has been about, so I guess we'll just have to tolerate each other's differing views.



    I don't speak the language, so I wouldn't really know, but I've always been hearing that Totti isn't known for saying the smartest things to the media. Also, his comments could've easily been taken out of context and misconstrued by writers, you know? Unless if he comes out publicly and puts the interests of his club ahead of an important game for Italy(assuming he comes out of his so-called retirement in time for the WC qualifiers), then we'll never really know.





    Understood. We'll just have to agree to disagree here because I can't think of a legitimate reason why these two greats can't exist on the same pitch in a productive manner. You just have to make Toni a tertiary option and let them handle the manufacturing of goalscoring opportunities between the two of em.




    I concur with you here for the most part. Yes he had a terrible campaign this year regardless of injuries, but we pretty much sucked as a whole. From the front, middle and back, we were agonizingly bad, man. Which just goes to show you how disconcertingly terrible the entire league was this year. But nevertheless, the Italian defence was thrown for a loop from the moment that Canna sustained that injury. He and Materazzi had built a solid partnership. I just can't comprehend how you can make the assessment that Barzagli was any better than Matey, though. You can't single out one turd from the other. The whole team was a pile of ****.





    I agree to an extent. My contention was never that they don't have distinctions and different responsibilities on the whole because Totti has minimal to no defensive duties, but that their overall influence and obligations, which is to develop plays and facilitate for those dependent upon their creative skills, is essentially the same. It doesn't matter much if Pirlo is playing slightly above his back four and Totti a couple of feet behind the forward (that is, if he isn't playing that role himself), their main objective is still to produce goalscoring opportunities for others first.....two playmakers (Worldclass at that) are always better than one.



    Interms of the comparison between the two, you initiated that discussion is all I was saying. But it matters little now as this has been a very civil argument. I don't wanna start another one with Totti/Kaka, but I feel that Totti does an excellent job of imitating what Kaka does in the last third of the field.


    I'll say it again. I feel that Totti and Pirlo compliment each other very well, man. There's a reason why they were the assist leaders for the tournament. One builds the offense from the first third onward and the other takes it from the last third on and either creates an opportunity for others or himself, you know? This impedes the opposition destroryers and sh!thmuckers from merely locking in on Pirlo and stifling his chances to create plays in around the forsaken area that is the middle of the pitch.

    In the end, when you've got two majestic playmakers like Totti and Pirlo, it's incumbent upon the coach to construct a formation and strategy that adequately emphasizes their attributes.





    That's a pretty decent lineup, I think. I'm not the biggest fan of Cassano, as I've already stated. I've just never understood the nauseatingly huge amount of hype that's always followed this turd around. Anyway, you've slotted him in a more proper position that I feel he'd be considerably more productive in than being assigned to a more wingish/forward spot, where he has no business being. I don't understand what Aquilani has done to deserve to be on this squad, let alone see action. Sure you wanna get younger, but isn't Montolivo considerably better than him and more suited for that spot? In my opinion, he's too redundant, stagnate and inconsistent of a player to have been chosen onto this team in the first place.


    Also, I'm not a huge fan of Grosso. Sure, he's a great provider from the wing and is a phenomenal setpiece specialist, but his lack of athleticism and inability to track back when he ventures forward and leaves gaping holes along his side is too much to overcome, man. He's a flopping faggot who is either conceding a foul with his lousy lunges due to his lack of lateral movement, or he's being cautioned for simulation....I just can't stand 'em. Chiellini, who is in my opinion one of the best in the World at the moment, is a far superior physical specimen and more suited for that position. I mean, he's not at Grosso's level when it comes to making throughball and cross passes, but this guy is a freak who is capable of running from one end of the pitch to the other for the entirety of a whole match....and he doesn't require any assistance in defending his sideeither, man.
     
  19. modena_10

    modena_10 Senior Squad

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    i 100% agree with you here. this is why lippi did so well in 06. every player on the team knew the formation and their respective roles in that formation. he found a way how to productively have pirlo and totti in the same side and the results speak for themselves.

    that's what great coaches do. they recognize what types of talent they have on their squad and find ways tactically to make it work.

    definitely agreed that as an attacking option grosso is perfect. defending, he is less than adequate. considering we haven't had a left sided midfielder in seemingly forever, i think grosso would do well there. he has played as a LW for a couple of the clubs he has played for, so the change would be unnoticeable. he will still have the mentality to get forward, and to italy's benefit, take away less defending responsibility. players like grosso and zambrotta are naturally wide midfielders but have the adaptability to play in defence.

    chiellini, after this tournament, will most likely be cemented into his CB role as opposed to his natural LB role. having played so very well there, and italy being strapped for talent at CB right now, he is the new heir to cannavaro and nesta.

    also, watching chiellini this tournament has really been a display of how he has matured. much smarter into tackles, great positioning, a monster in the air, and showed a great understanding of the game. he was dissecting plays and cutting out possible dangers with ease and all that was done without everyone's favourite safety blanket cannavaro. great promise for this kid, i have to be confident that lippi has taken notice.
     
      

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