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NBA 2004/2005 Playoffs Thread
- Thread starter $teauA
- Start date
Can't really remember exactly how it happened, and the piece led me otherwise:Carlos*son was out of contract after the Finals against Detroit and Buss didn't re-sign him.
There aren't many guys out there like West and Kupchack is certainly not Jerry West. We've got cap issues so if we're going to do anything, we have to trade and draft wisely; we can't really do anything in free agency. Everyone keeps talking about 2006 or 2007 when we'll be able to have a major impact in free agency because we'll rid ourselves of several big contracts (Brian Grant).dannyeli said:Jerry West was the one who put that team together, Kutsh!t won't do a good job and will brought up low class players.
ShiftyPowers
Make America Great Again
Yeah, Kupchack isn't Jerry West. Kupchack couldn't take two first round picks and get nothing out of them. To me Jerry West's GM Career will always be defined by taking Dahante Jones and Troy Bell in the first round. Probably the two worst picks in the entire draft.
ShiftyPowers
Make America Great Again
He traded Vlade Divac for Kobe and signed Shaq. Look, it doesn't take a genius to know Shaq is good, he led Orlando to 2 finals appearances when Jordan was retired for the first time. He got lucky that he had money to sign Shaq and was the GM of a team that Shaq was willing to play for. Ditto for Phil Carlos*son, EVERYONE wanted Phil, he won 6 freakin titles! I'm not hailing a guy because he was smart enough to sign Phil Carlos*son and Shaq; if that's genius now days then I really really need to be a GM.
Chacarita Juniors
The artist formerly known as ronnifan9
What about them? they're still losing the series 4-2.$teauA said:
$teauA said:
Congratulations to the Pistons, they played great. Let's hope the Spurs do something about it and come back playing more "agressively" then they did this game. I think two factors that contributed to their demise tonight was Duncan's overall ineffectiveness (I'm sure he is pretty pissed off about that) and Ginobili's poor effort tonight (he sure is pretty pissed off as well). We have to win at least one in the road to hope to win the series..But looking at the scores, the Spurs were pretty close at half time considering their very sloppy play, and in the third, if I am not mistaken, they did not trail by much. So imagine if they come out playing great basketball like they did in the first two, who knows how well they will play...
Off topic but what the hell.............COMBINES DISCRIMINATE GREATLY AGAINST WHITE FOLK AND NEED TO BE MODIFIED ACCORDINGLY, PRONTO!!
There....I said it.
Graham stands out as the camp's best athleteBy Chad Ford
ESPN Insider
Archive
There are three ways to help your draft stock at the Chicago predraft camp.
First, you can actually play well in the event, like Luther Head and David Lee did, and convince scouts that you're first-round material.
Second, you can stand against a wall, spread your arms out and possibly measure longer/bigger than team originally thought you were. Guys like Chris Paul and Ike Diogu did that this year.
Finally, you can go through the NBA draft combine and prove to scouts that you're quicker, stronger, or can jump higher than your original scouting report.
Insider exclusively obtained a list of the Chicago pre-draft camp combine results on Wednesday. The combine measures four key areas: strength (bench press repetitions of 185 pounds), vertical jump, lane agility (how fast a player moves laterally around the key), and speed (¾-court sprint). Then the league adds those up and gives an athletic ranking to each player in the draft.
The overall winner this year was Oklahoma State's Joey Graham, who blew away the competition. Second was Georgia Tech's Will Bynum. Other top players with good scores included Rashad McCants (3rd overall), Luther Head (6th), David Lee (11th), Marvin Williams (15th), Chris Paul (16th) and Raymond Felton (18th).
There was one major surprise in the top 20 -- Illinois point guard Deron Williams finished 10th, ahead of both Paul and Felton. Part of that had to do with strength; Williams bench pressed 185 pounds 15 times, which is really great for a point guard. However, that wasn't the full story.
There have been major questions about Williams' lateral quickness, but he actually tested quicker than Paul in the lane agility drill and finished .03 seconds behind Paul in the sprint. Williams has lost about 15 pounds and is down to 7½ percent body fat, which obviously has helped his athleticism.
The bottom end of the spectrum included mostly international players and lumbering big men. Georgia Tech center Luke Schensher finished at the bottom of the list (75th). Ersan Ilyasova (74th) and Martynas Andriuskevicius (73rd) also tested poorly.
The shock on the low end was high school star Monta Ellis, who finished 70th. His strength, vertical jump and lateral quickness were all on the low end of the scale. That could be devastating to his draft chances.
Other disappointments included Andrew Bogut (61st), Martell Webster (60th), Rudy Fernandez (57th), Antoine Wright (55th), Jarrett Carlos (54th) and Francisco Garcia (51st).
Luther Head ranked as the most athletic point guard in camp. Will Bynum took the award for the 2-guards. Joey Graham won for 3s, David Lee for 4s and Marcin Gortat for centers.
Ellis was the worst ranked guard in camp at either position. Ilyasova finished last among small forwards while Taylor Coppenrath was last for power forwards and Luke Schenscher finished at the bottom of the heap for centers.
On the individual test front, Will Bynum recorded the highest one-step vertical jump at 40½ inches. Gerald Green and Ronnie Price tied for second at 39 inches, followed by Luther Head at 38½. Chris Paul and Hakim Warrick rounded out the top-five, each launching a 38-inch leap.
Luke Schensher recorded the worst vertical jump, at 26½ inches. He was followed by Taylor Coppenrath and Jason Klotz (27 inches) and Martynas Andriuskevicius and Wayne Simien (27½ inches).
Joey Graham won the strength test, bench pressing 185 pounds an impressive 26 times. Ike Diogu finished second with 21 reps, followed by Chuck Hayes with 20. Channing Frye helped himself shed the soft label a bit by hoisting the bar 19 times. Eric Williams, Marcin Gortat and David Simon all finished tied for fifth with 18 reps.
As happens every year, several top players were unable or barely able to do this drill. Monta Ellis, Rudy Fernandez, Martynas Andriuskevicius, Brandon Rush and Daryl Dorsey got a zero for the drill. Luke Schensher and Travis Diener could only lift the bar once.
In the lane agility drill, Michigan State's Alan Anderson recorded the fastest time at 10.32 seconds. Rashad McCants was second at 10.39. John Lucas ranked third, Rudy Fernandez fourth and Raymond Felton fifth.
Jason Klotz, Ellis Myles and Deji Akindele finished at the bottom of the heap. Monta Ellis and Andrew Bogut also recorded terrible times of above 12 seconds.
In the ¾-court sprint, Will Bynum recorded the fastest time at 3 seconds. Joey Graham, Raymond Felton, Rashad McCants and John Lucas were also in the top five. Marvin Williams and Julius Hodge finished in the top 10.
Jason Klotz earns the awarded as the slowest guy in camp with a 3.68 seconds time. Ersan Ilyasova, Andrew Bogut, D'or Fischer and Torin Francis rounded out the five slowest guys in camp.
Here's a look at how 30 of the top draft prospects performed in each event. Note that several top prospects, including Fran Vazquez, Johan Petro, Nate Robinson, Ryan Gomes, Brandon Bass, Matt Walsh and Linas Kleiza, did not participate in the testing.
Chicago Predraft Combine Results
Name Bench press Vertical jump Lane Agility ¾-court sprint Overall rank
Joey Graham 26 36" 10.62 3.05 1
Rashad McCants 15 34½ in 10.39 3.11 3
Luther Head 14 38½" 11.12 3.21 7
Deron Williams 15 35" 10.83 3.25 10
David Lee 14 32½" 10.80 3.19 11
Marvin Williams 12 35" 11.11 3.17 15
Chris Paul 10 38½" 11.09 3.22 16
Raymond Felton 6 33½" 10.50 3.06 18
Ronny Turiaf 15 33" 11.50 3.23 21
Gerald Green 7 39" 11.2 3.21 24
Chris Taft 14 33" 11.26 3.27 25
Julius Hodge 14 29" 10.89 3.18 26
Sean May 12 33" 11.04 3.29 27
Danny Granger 10 34" 10.84 3.34 31
Channing Frye 19 31" 11.60 3.38 33
Dwayne Jones 15 31½" 11.87 3.25 38
Ike Diogu 21 31" 11.94 3.45 39
Charlie Villanueva 11 31" 10.86 3.3 42
Wayne Simien 11 27½" 11.05 3.35 49
Francisco Garcia 5 31½" 10.63 3.33 51
Jarrett Carlos 5 28½" 10.87 3.24 54
Antoine Wright 12 29½" 11.45 3.41 55
Rudy Fernandez 0 35½" 10.48 3.33 56
Martell Webster 7 30½" 11.39 3.39 59
Andrew Bogut 13 33½" 12.06 3½1 60
Hakim Warrick 11 38" N/A 3.22 61
Monta Ellis 0 31½" 12.13 3.31 70
Martynas Andriuskevicius 0 27½" 11.94 3.42 73
Ersan Ilyasova 2 30" 11.59 3½6 74
So who was helped and hurt by the testing?
WINNERS
Deron Williams -- Scouts have been questioning his quickness and athleticism all year. Now that he's lost some of that body fat, that no longer seems to be an issue. He's not as fast as Raymond Felton and doesn't jump as high as Chris Paul, but he's clearly in the same league athletically.
Joey Graham -- It doesn't come as a huge surprise that Graham came out on top. If you've seen him play much, you know he's an unbelievable athlete. Still, finishing on top of the heap should guarantee he gets selected in the lottery.
Will Bynum -- He was the last guy invited to Chicago and played extremely well, especially on the defensive end. A few scouts believe he might be a better prospect than Nate Robinson (the guy who tested as the top athlete in Chicago last year). I doubt he gets selected ahead of Nate, but he's definitely in the second-round mix now.
Rashad McCants -- There are still questions about his attitude, but it's rare to find such a great shooter who can also test off the charts athletically (just look at Martell Webster and Antoine Wright). Someone's going to ignore the baggage and take him in the late lottery to mid-first round.Channing Frye -- He's stronger and more athletic than scouts have given him credit. The 19 reps on the bench press will turn a lot of heads.
David Lee -- Athletically, he tested as the top power forward in the draft. His lane agility scores are what really stand out. Lee has very quick feet, which will really help him defensively in the pros. Combine that with his strong play in Chicago and Lee seems like he's another step closer to securing a spot in the first round.
Marcin Gortat -- He had just a so-so camp, but he tested out as the most athletic center in the draft. He could be off the board in the first 10 picks of the second round if he decides to stay in the draft.
Sean May -- His numbers don't jump out at you, but he showed a better vertical jump and more agility than his main competition: Ike Diogu, Wayne Simien and Chris Taft. Maybe that will balance out the fact that he measured smaller than all of them.
LOSERS
Andrew Bogut -- He's been trying to dispel the "great white stiff" myth for the past few weeks. This doesn't help. While his vertical leap is actually above average for a guy his size, his lateral quickness and sprinting speed were just awful. That will hurt him defensively.
Wayne Simien -- Simien finished well below the other top big men in almost every area. Especially shocking is his lack of explosion jumping off one foot. His one-step vertical was only a half inch more than his standing vertical. That was, by far, the worst in the camp.
Antoine Wright -- Scouts have been warning that Wright looks more athletic than he actually is. At the combine, he was significantly below Francisco Garcia, a guy almost every scout in the league has knocked for his lack of athleticism. Had he not benched an impressive 12 reps, he would have landed close to the bottom. That's going to come back to haunt Wright.
Jarrett Carlos -- He has great size and toughness, but athletically, he tested well behind most of the point guards in this draft. With Roko Ukic making a strong push, it could cause him to slip.
The High Schoolers -- Monta Ellis, Martell Webster and Brandon Rush all tested terribly. That's partly because of their age and partly because guys like Ellis and Rush might not have been training for these particular tests the way some players do.
We knew that Webster was just an average athlete but Ellis was a huge shock. For an undersized 2-guard to be successful in the League, he has to be long, quick and explosive. Ellis is none of the above. There's been talk that Minnesota is flirting with taking him at No. 14. It's pretty hard to justify that after seeing these numbers.
The Internationals -- They always struggle every year. With the exception of Gortat, they all were near the bottom of the heap. Most of them have never lifted weights before (which hurts their bench press numbers) and most are bigs lacking any real explosion or quickness.
Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.
Forget about mid to late lottery selection, Monta Ellis has ass-raped himself wholly out of the first round with those numbers, man.
There....I said it.
Graham stands out as the camp's best athleteBy Chad Ford
ESPN Insider
Archive
There are three ways to help your draft stock at the Chicago predraft camp.
First, you can actually play well in the event, like Luther Head and David Lee did, and convince scouts that you're first-round material.
Second, you can stand against a wall, spread your arms out and possibly measure longer/bigger than team originally thought you were. Guys like Chris Paul and Ike Diogu did that this year.
Finally, you can go through the NBA draft combine and prove to scouts that you're quicker, stronger, or can jump higher than your original scouting report.
Insider exclusively obtained a list of the Chicago pre-draft camp combine results on Wednesday. The combine measures four key areas: strength (bench press repetitions of 185 pounds), vertical jump, lane agility (how fast a player moves laterally around the key), and speed (¾-court sprint). Then the league adds those up and gives an athletic ranking to each player in the draft.
The overall winner this year was Oklahoma State's Joey Graham, who blew away the competition. Second was Georgia Tech's Will Bynum. Other top players with good scores included Rashad McCants (3rd overall), Luther Head (6th), David Lee (11th), Marvin Williams (15th), Chris Paul (16th) and Raymond Felton (18th).
There was one major surprise in the top 20 -- Illinois point guard Deron Williams finished 10th, ahead of both Paul and Felton. Part of that had to do with strength; Williams bench pressed 185 pounds 15 times, which is really great for a point guard. However, that wasn't the full story.
There have been major questions about Williams' lateral quickness, but he actually tested quicker than Paul in the lane agility drill and finished .03 seconds behind Paul in the sprint. Williams has lost about 15 pounds and is down to 7½ percent body fat, which obviously has helped his athleticism.
The bottom end of the spectrum included mostly international players and lumbering big men. Georgia Tech center Luke Schensher finished at the bottom of the list (75th). Ersan Ilyasova (74th) and Martynas Andriuskevicius (73rd) also tested poorly.
The shock on the low end was high school star Monta Ellis, who finished 70th. His strength, vertical jump and lateral quickness were all on the low end of the scale. That could be devastating to his draft chances.
Other disappointments included Andrew Bogut (61st), Martell Webster (60th), Rudy Fernandez (57th), Antoine Wright (55th), Jarrett Carlos (54th) and Francisco Garcia (51st).
Luther Head ranked as the most athletic point guard in camp. Will Bynum took the award for the 2-guards. Joey Graham won for 3s, David Lee for 4s and Marcin Gortat for centers.
Ellis was the worst ranked guard in camp at either position. Ilyasova finished last among small forwards while Taylor Coppenrath was last for power forwards and Luke Schenscher finished at the bottom of the heap for centers.
On the individual test front, Will Bynum recorded the highest one-step vertical jump at 40½ inches. Gerald Green and Ronnie Price tied for second at 39 inches, followed by Luther Head at 38½. Chris Paul and Hakim Warrick rounded out the top-five, each launching a 38-inch leap.
Luke Schensher recorded the worst vertical jump, at 26½ inches. He was followed by Taylor Coppenrath and Jason Klotz (27 inches) and Martynas Andriuskevicius and Wayne Simien (27½ inches).
Joey Graham won the strength test, bench pressing 185 pounds an impressive 26 times. Ike Diogu finished second with 21 reps, followed by Chuck Hayes with 20. Channing Frye helped himself shed the soft label a bit by hoisting the bar 19 times. Eric Williams, Marcin Gortat and David Simon all finished tied for fifth with 18 reps.
As happens every year, several top players were unable or barely able to do this drill. Monta Ellis, Rudy Fernandez, Martynas Andriuskevicius, Brandon Rush and Daryl Dorsey got a zero for the drill. Luke Schensher and Travis Diener could only lift the bar once.
In the lane agility drill, Michigan State's Alan Anderson recorded the fastest time at 10.32 seconds. Rashad McCants was second at 10.39. John Lucas ranked third, Rudy Fernandez fourth and Raymond Felton fifth.
Jason Klotz, Ellis Myles and Deji Akindele finished at the bottom of the heap. Monta Ellis and Andrew Bogut also recorded terrible times of above 12 seconds.
In the ¾-court sprint, Will Bynum recorded the fastest time at 3 seconds. Joey Graham, Raymond Felton, Rashad McCants and John Lucas were also in the top five. Marvin Williams and Julius Hodge finished in the top 10.
Jason Klotz earns the awarded as the slowest guy in camp with a 3.68 seconds time. Ersan Ilyasova, Andrew Bogut, D'or Fischer and Torin Francis rounded out the five slowest guys in camp.
Here's a look at how 30 of the top draft prospects performed in each event. Note that several top prospects, including Fran Vazquez, Johan Petro, Nate Robinson, Ryan Gomes, Brandon Bass, Matt Walsh and Linas Kleiza, did not participate in the testing.
Chicago Predraft Combine Results
Name Bench press Vertical jump Lane Agility ¾-court sprint Overall rank
Joey Graham 26 36" 10.62 3.05 1
Rashad McCants 15 34½ in 10.39 3.11 3
Luther Head 14 38½" 11.12 3.21 7
Deron Williams 15 35" 10.83 3.25 10
David Lee 14 32½" 10.80 3.19 11
Marvin Williams 12 35" 11.11 3.17 15
Chris Paul 10 38½" 11.09 3.22 16
Raymond Felton 6 33½" 10.50 3.06 18
Ronny Turiaf 15 33" 11.50 3.23 21
Gerald Green 7 39" 11.2 3.21 24
Chris Taft 14 33" 11.26 3.27 25
Julius Hodge 14 29" 10.89 3.18 26
Sean May 12 33" 11.04 3.29 27
Danny Granger 10 34" 10.84 3.34 31
Channing Frye 19 31" 11.60 3.38 33
Dwayne Jones 15 31½" 11.87 3.25 38
Ike Diogu 21 31" 11.94 3.45 39
Charlie Villanueva 11 31" 10.86 3.3 42
Wayne Simien 11 27½" 11.05 3.35 49
Francisco Garcia 5 31½" 10.63 3.33 51
Jarrett Carlos 5 28½" 10.87 3.24 54
Antoine Wright 12 29½" 11.45 3.41 55
Rudy Fernandez 0 35½" 10.48 3.33 56
Martell Webster 7 30½" 11.39 3.39 59
Andrew Bogut 13 33½" 12.06 3½1 60
Hakim Warrick 11 38" N/A 3.22 61
Monta Ellis 0 31½" 12.13 3.31 70
Martynas Andriuskevicius 0 27½" 11.94 3.42 73
Ersan Ilyasova 2 30" 11.59 3½6 74
So who was helped and hurt by the testing?
WINNERS
Deron Williams -- Scouts have been questioning his quickness and athleticism all year. Now that he's lost some of that body fat, that no longer seems to be an issue. He's not as fast as Raymond Felton and doesn't jump as high as Chris Paul, but he's clearly in the same league athletically.
Joey Graham -- It doesn't come as a huge surprise that Graham came out on top. If you've seen him play much, you know he's an unbelievable athlete. Still, finishing on top of the heap should guarantee he gets selected in the lottery.
Will Bynum -- He was the last guy invited to Chicago and played extremely well, especially on the defensive end. A few scouts believe he might be a better prospect than Nate Robinson (the guy who tested as the top athlete in Chicago last year). I doubt he gets selected ahead of Nate, but he's definitely in the second-round mix now.
Rashad McCants -- There are still questions about his attitude, but it's rare to find such a great shooter who can also test off the charts athletically (just look at Martell Webster and Antoine Wright). Someone's going to ignore the baggage and take him in the late lottery to mid-first round.Channing Frye -- He's stronger and more athletic than scouts have given him credit. The 19 reps on the bench press will turn a lot of heads.
David Lee -- Athletically, he tested as the top power forward in the draft. His lane agility scores are what really stand out. Lee has very quick feet, which will really help him defensively in the pros. Combine that with his strong play in Chicago and Lee seems like he's another step closer to securing a spot in the first round.
Marcin Gortat -- He had just a so-so camp, but he tested out as the most athletic center in the draft. He could be off the board in the first 10 picks of the second round if he decides to stay in the draft.
Sean May -- His numbers don't jump out at you, but he showed a better vertical jump and more agility than his main competition: Ike Diogu, Wayne Simien and Chris Taft. Maybe that will balance out the fact that he measured smaller than all of them.
LOSERS
Andrew Bogut -- He's been trying to dispel the "great white stiff" myth for the past few weeks. This doesn't help. While his vertical leap is actually above average for a guy his size, his lateral quickness and sprinting speed were just awful. That will hurt him defensively.
Wayne Simien -- Simien finished well below the other top big men in almost every area. Especially shocking is his lack of explosion jumping off one foot. His one-step vertical was only a half inch more than his standing vertical. That was, by far, the worst in the camp.
Antoine Wright -- Scouts have been warning that Wright looks more athletic than he actually is. At the combine, he was significantly below Francisco Garcia, a guy almost every scout in the league has knocked for his lack of athleticism. Had he not benched an impressive 12 reps, he would have landed close to the bottom. That's going to come back to haunt Wright.
Jarrett Carlos -- He has great size and toughness, but athletically, he tested well behind most of the point guards in this draft. With Roko Ukic making a strong push, it could cause him to slip.
The High Schoolers -- Monta Ellis, Martell Webster and Brandon Rush all tested terribly. That's partly because of their age and partly because guys like Ellis and Rush might not have been training for these particular tests the way some players do.
We knew that Webster was just an average athlete but Ellis was a huge shock. For an undersized 2-guard to be successful in the League, he has to be long, quick and explosive. Ellis is none of the above. There's been talk that Minnesota is flirting with taking him at No. 14. It's pretty hard to justify that after seeing these numbers.
The Internationals -- They always struggle every year. With the exception of Gortat, they all were near the bottom of the heap. Most of them have never lifted weights before (which hurts their bench press numbers) and most are bigs lacking any real explosion or quickness.
Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.
Forget about mid to late lottery selection, Monta Ellis has ass-raped himself wholly out of the first round with those numbers, man.
ShiftyPowers
Make America Great Again
Just remember that you have to pay for ESPN Insider, so it's not really morally right to put up an article that costs money to view on a public forum. Also, there's an Offseason Thread that's ALL about the draft.
ShiftyPowers said:
Dude, I don't need you to accost me and give me a preachy spiel about the moral and ethical ramifications of distributing intellectual property without discretion. I'm not the first, second, third, or even tenth person to have shared this information. I realize that you have to subscribe to the site in order to get this stuff, but lots of crap that's either protected by a copyright or is paid for, is freely shared on the internet. I'm just the messemger here, man. I'm not the one who leaked it, (combine workouts go public sooner or later anyway) I'm just trying to disclose to you all this great bit of info to generate more discussion about the draft.
Btw, accept my apology, brothers, for having posted such a long, and distracting post in the wrong thread. Being lazy and all, I clicked on the first thread relating to the NBA without even looking down a row or two.
V
Virgo
Guest
ShiftyPowers said:
Yeah man might as well directly report Yoss to the feds next time.
Shame on you Yossarian
What's next for you... downloading mp3 off the web?
Shame on YOU, Virgo, for making light of ShiftyPowers's legitimate point of contention with your over the top post. Piracy is a massive social problem in our society that's destroying and devaluing our copyright system. 
Again, shame on you, social parasite, and may the RIAA, MPAA and any other governing body out there ass rape you in the wallet for all you're worth.
*does a quick search on some random torrent site for a rare Frank Marino album and some of Henry Rollin's earlier work*
Again, shame on you, social parasite, and may the RIAA, MPAA and any other governing body out there ass rape you in the wallet for all you're worth.
*does a quick search on some random torrent site for a rare Frank Marino album and some of Henry Rollin's earlier work*