Gotcha!

[Back Door Skip]

 

[Dah Shinin']

Huh, is that a threat?

Its not a threat. Its fact that Bin Laden was just an alibi for the US which is the reason why he had to die under shady circumstances instead of be trailed in a court. The US might have its public convinced that its foreign policy is supposed to be protecting them. But its only creating them more and more enemies, what a bunch of spastics.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Alright Lupe, you aren't a good enough writer to make the (possibly valid) point you're trying to make without sounding like an idiot.

 

[Dah Shinin']

First I put zero effort writing on an on-line forum, second English isn't my first or even second language. How many languages do you know besides English? None.

Sorry that I'm not a 30 something year-old loser, with a thinning hairline who spent over a decade posting useless junk. What a legacy you must be very proud.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

First I put zero effort writing on an on-line forum, second English isn't my first or even second language.

Well then you should be aware of how stupid you sound.

How many languages do you know besides English? None.

Oh?

Sorry that I'm not a 30 something year-old loser, with a thinning hairline who spent over a decade posting useless junk. What a legacy you must be very proud.

Aside from my registration date on this forum you're wrong on everything else; it's all pretty easily verifiable on here too. 20s, attorney, full head of hair. You?

 

[Dah Shinin']

Here we go again putting on that I'm a sick **** in life on-line persona. Your a sad little kid get the f*ck out of here. Doesn't matter what I do or who I am cuz it doesn't concern anyone here, I don't need to prove nothing to no one.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Here we go again putting on that I'm a sick **** in life on-line persona. Your a sad little kid get the f*ck out of here. Doesn't matter what I do or who I am cuz it doesn't concern anyone here, I don't need to prove nothing to no one.

lol, you brought it up not me.

 

[Back Door Skip]

Here we go again putting on that I'm a sick **** in life on-line persona. Your a sad little kid get the f*ck out of here. Doesn't matter what I do or who I am cuz it doesn't concern anyone here, I don't need to prove nothing to no one.

Great way to get your point across, Nostradamus.

 

[Sir Calumn]

Guess why this thread is being resurrected....

Bush 1 - 2 Obama

Hussein 03 - Bin Laden 11, Qaddafi 11 (pen)

We Brits and Mr Cameron can take some credit too....

So...... what do you guys think?

Did you expect him to be found, and so easily? (Of the three 'big captures' of the decade on all three occasions I have been amazed at how basic the situation has actually been, perhaps its just because of the false mythology build around these people however)

Was he right to be executed outright or should he have been brought to trial? (Even though it was also a wartime scenario, unlike Bin Laden Qaddafi was surrendering and it was less likely (though not impossible) that he was wearing a suicide vest or other hidden threat, so it could even be argued that he was killed illegally. On the other hand, the possibility of disputes over the nature of the trial, and the possible length of a trial, may mean this was has saved lives in the long run as by cutting off the figurehead immediately it may give much more impetus for the remaining loyalists to give up.)

Is this now the clear end of the civil war in Libya and can we now hope to see a peaceful restructure - and will that restructure actually result in greater freedom and democracy?

Discuss!

 

[Sir Calumn]

Also has anyone heard of these before? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein's_novels

 

[RobbieD_PL]

I think that although it's great that he's dead, that bloody picture of his face is going to inspire many a traumatizing "clown" themed childrens' bed for years to come.

Still in all seriousness, this is a historic chapter for the beginning of a new start for freedom in the Arab World. There is still stiff resistance from a last couple of despots (mainly Syria); The Arab Spring's success in the magnitude and speed of change it has brought about has been inspiring. I wonder what this will do for the whole clash of civilizations rhetoric when it turns out that everyone actually wants to be free?

 

[clash]

Glad he's done with, but much like Hussein and Bin Laden, it's mostly a symbolic closure to a chapter than anything else. As for the way he got killed, I'd prefer the way it went rather than executing him after the trial as the latter would have given a lot of organizations and people (probably including me) to start going on about how it would be wrong to kill him. Also the possible Breivik-effect which in Gadhfis case might actually have consequences.

Although the NTC was NATO-supported and things could have gone a dfiferent way without that, I'd still think that capturing Gadhafi and the Lybian revolt was much different from the fall of Osama and Hussein - like in Egypt and Tunisia, the people themselves should get most credit for getting rid of a dictator. Makes you wonder if this could happen in Europe, thinking Belarus or in a lot more isolated places, thinking DPRK.

 

[RobbieD_PL]

So it's not ok to kill him following due process via a trial, but it's ok to kill him on the battlefield. Although I must say I don't support the death penalty, Gadhafi lived by the pistol and he died by the pistol.

Osama also didn't run a political dictatorship within any M. Eastern state, so it wasn't like you were going to have masses even revolting against him. People are worrying now that Islamist parties will take power in the new revolutionary political era, but I don't think people will throw away their hard fought freedom for theocracies. Theistic options will also have to play by a democratic rule book too now, and as far as I know most countries are realising this, as they look to Turkey as an example.

In Europe it happened already with the fall of the Iron Curtain, Belarus is just the last ignomany of that era.

 

[Sir Calumn]

So it's not ok to kill him following due process via a trial, but it's ok to kill him on the battlefield. Although I must say I don't support the death penalty, Gadhafi lived by the pistol and he died by the pistol.

I agree with you here I think, I am completely opposed to capital punishment of any kind but I do feel there is moral justification for killing an enemy combatant in the field, even when that person may not pose an immediate or obvious risk.

Osama also didn't run a political dictatorship within any M. Eastern state, so it wasn't like you were going to have masses even revolting against him. People are worrying now that Islamist parties will take power in the new revolutionary political era, but I don't think people will throw away their hard fought freedom for theocracies. Theistic options will also have to play by a democratic rule book too now, and as far as I know most countries are realising this, as they look to Turkey as an example.

In Europe it happened already with the fall of the Iron Curtain, Belarus is just the last ignomany of that era.

You cant really compare post cold war Europe with post-dictator ship Islamic countries because of the religious factor. I do agree with you however, I cant see people (in the short term at any rate) resurrender their freedom, and evidence suggests that the hardcore islamist factions only enjoy about a 15% support at the moment. When you look at the footage of the rebel (now government) victors it seems to me very unlikely that these people would submit to draconian islamic law (indeed they share common ground with resistance movements in Iran who are campaigning against the theocracy there) There are young people and many of them seem very well educated, which does hopefully point Libya in the direction of a more moderate and socially free country.

The practicalities of setting up the new Libya may be more complex, but Libya does have the advantage of extreme natural wealth and a whole horde of new foreign allies eager to do business (expect big profits and some cut throat negotiation from some of our companies in the near future). But what will come with that will be advise and support in setting up democratic electoral processes. Libya could just be a beacon.

 

[Sir Calumn]

Glad he's done with, but much like Hussein and Bin Laden, it's mostly a symbolic closure to a chapter than anything else. As for the way he got killed, I'd prefer the way it went rather than executing him after the trial as the latter would have given a lot of organizations and people (probably including me) to start going on about how it would be wrong to kill him. Also the possible Breivik-effect which in Gadhfis case might actually have consequences.

Although the NTC was NATO-supported and things could have gone a dfiferent way without that, I'd still think that capturing Gadhafi and the Lybian revolt was much different from the fall of Osama and Hussein - like in Egypt and Tunisia, the people themselves should get most credit for getting rid of a dictator. Makes you wonder if this could happen in Europe, thinking Belarus or in a lot more isolated places, thinking DPRK.

Yes and it proves wrong the old claim that "some cultures and societies just dont want democracy." If it can happen in Libya, in can happen anywhere. A big question that arises is do we in the west now owe it to other revolutionary movements is despotic countries so support them as we did Libya if they ask for it?

 

[clash]

I'd guess it depends on the conflict. I don't think NATO would've gotten involved with the Georgia - Russia conflict, even if it was to escalate into something uglier than it was, because of the relationship between USA, NATO and Russia. It wasn't really the same, the main similairty being a non-NATO memberstate in a conflict. Don't remember what were the official standpoint for US/NATO when **** hit the fan in Tibet few yars ago? Syria...?

As for what's going to happen next. I'd guess the elections in Tunisia and how they'll succeed will be sort of a lighthouse for the rest of arab spring countries.

Been a ******* crazy, interesting year

 

[RobbieD_PL]

I agree with you here I think, I am completely opposed to capital punishment of any kind but I do feel there is moral justification for killing an enemy combatant in the field, even when that person may not pose an immediate or obvious risk.

Is there a difference between an emeny combatant and a dictator? I wouldn't think so, given the repression they usually have to belt out.

You cant really compare post cold war Europe with post-dictator ship Islamic countries because of the religious factor. I do agree with you however, I cant see people (in the short term at any rate) resurrender their freedom, and evidence suggests that the hardcore islamist factions only enjoy about a 15% support at the moment. When you look at the footage of the rebel (now government) victors it seems to me very unlikely that these people would submit to draconian islamic law (indeed they share common ground with resistance movements in Iran who are campaigning against the theocracy there) There are young people and many of them seem very well educated, which does hopefully point Libya in the direction of a more moderate and socially free country.

What exactly do you mean by the religious factor? Religion played a big social factor in some of the E. European Revolutions (particularly where my heritage lies: Poland, and indeed the role of church in politics there is still somewhat of an issue), and Gadhafi was a Marxist-Islamist. Whilst the Communist regimes in E. Europe were openly atheist, it's not like the NTC in Libya haven't tried to draw strength from the God of Abraham under their Quranic interpretation.

The practicalities of setting up the new Libya may be more complex, but Libya does have the advantage of extreme natural wealth and a whole horde of new foreign allies eager to do business (expect big profits and some cut throat negotiation from some of our companies in the near future). But what will come with that will be advise and support in setting up democratic electoral processes. Libya could just be a beacon.

This also draws on my second point a bit. The head of the NTC just announced in Benghazi that the country would draw inspiration from Sharia law. Whether that will go to the violent extremes of cutting hands and heads off, it's obviously not yet clear. I doubt it. One of the things announced, however, is the creation of Islamic banks, which are forbidden to place interests on loans.

I think that with this, the political and economic assistance will be two distinct fields, probably only coming into contact in the neogtiation of any future trade agreements.

 

[RobbieD_PL]

Yes and it proves wrong the old claim that "some cultures and societies just dont want democracy." If it can happen in Libya, in can happen anywhere. A big question that arises is do we in the west now owe it to other revolutionary movements is despotic countries so support them as we did Libya if they ask for it?

I also wonder what the Arab Spring will do for giant cocks like Geert Wilders.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

$200 billion!!!

 

[RobbieD_PL]

$200 billion!!!

1. Democratic Revolution

2. Kill Gadhaffi

???

3. Profit!