fifa's off the ball control

[akvelocity365]

Originally posted by Ashy
do you disagree with using a button to bring your keeper out when you are controlling a defender? as you should really be depending on teamwork for that as well

First off, lets try to stay on the subject of the OTB function so that this thread doesn't go totally out of whack! But to respond to that comment, to some extent, that is similar to OTB control if one were to actually use a defender and a KP to take the ball away. I only use it as my last line of defence, hence, nothing a defender can do about the attacker, so I then take somewhat of the control of the KP and hope I judge the distance just right to save the shot!

(will continue later... gotta catch a bus!)

 

[the_man]

Originally posted by Ashy
do you disagree with using a button to bring your keeper out when you are controlling a defender? as you should really be depending on teamwork for that as well

A faulty comparison. If this were a button to make players make runs, we would be arguing a different case becos the AI STILL controls the players making those runs. Just as the AI controls the keeper that comes off his line when you press a button to tell him to come off his line. Until he catches it, until he gets to the ball, you have no control over the goalie, the AI does.

And before you bring in the concept of 1-2's I'll adress that. The player with the ball initiates a 1-2 right. He passes the ball to a player and runs into space. When he passes that ball and the receiving player gets the ball do you have control over where that player ran into space, how far into space he runs and so and so forth? No, you don't. As soon as that ball has left his feet, your control over him is over, the AI takes over. That gives you (gamer) the ability to make the pass back to player player OR to let him make the run, take a defender with him and do something else with the ball. At NO point do you have control over both players at the same time. The feature we are talking about, allows you to control both the player making the run and the player with the ball at the same time. This is fundamental to my disagreement with the concept implemented by EA

 

[Ashy]

Originally posted by Paco de Lucia
My current ML team includes Totti, Rivaldo, Henry, Nesta, Thuram, Vieira, etc. Is that realistic?

you have obviously not heard of Chelsea have you

 

[culo]

Give the user all the control and let them go against the AI. What is the point of that, we all know that [most] Human inteligence is greater than any AI in a game. If you give the human all the control, the AI has no chance.

The user will only have temporary control of 2 players, the other 9 are still under control of CPU.

I also don't see why the AI defensive model cannot be programmed to react to a human made run as opposed to a scripted AI run.

And what happens when 2 humans play against the AI in WE/PES? Does the AI team just fall to bits at the human's magic?

Also, AI can out-manoeuvre a human when it comes to a computer program. KCET already do this by having those little cheats where they slow your guy down, etc to ensure it gets to the ball first.

As for the clumsiness that was mentioned? Well, are you telling me all those special moves that you can pull of in WE7 are not clumsy? Or would you describe these as being "difficult to master and that is a good thing". In which case, is it not a good thing that this OTB move is made difficult to master?

And are you telling me that having to press R1 + R2 and LAS just to snap your guy out of yet another scripted run in WE is not a bit clumsy?

I stand by my original comment that most of those against the idea are so because it comes from EA and they only look for the negatives...easy to do, just like it's easy to pick holes in the arguments. Hey, we all know FIFA2004 will suck but is it really necessary to dis everything EA try, just because it's EA?

 

[Paco de Lucia]

Originally posted by Ashy
you have obviously not heard of Chelsea have you

That was good, Ashy. Russian billionaires aside. Back to the argument.

 

[the_man]

Originally posted by culo
The user will only have temporary control of 2 players, the other 9 are still under control of CPU.

I also don't see why the AI defensive model cannot be programmed to react to a human made run as opposed to a scripted AI run.

And what happens when 2 humans play against the AI in WE/PES? Does the AI team just fall to bits at the human's magic?

Good point, the only problem is that you said two humans. They can talk, communicate, they can't have the same mind. You can not control your mate to make him pass the ball or make him make a run. You can be on the same page as he is and have the same ideas, but when the movement of two players comes from one mind...that is where I have the problem.

Originally posted by culo

Also, AI can out-manoeuvre a human when it comes to a computer program. KCET already do this by having those little cheats where they slow your guy down, etc to ensure it gets to the ball first.

On occasion, yes. If I put you in a season of ML on extreme for WE6FE are you telling me you will have problems winning that season? Not if you've played WE6FE for the past 8 months. The fact is that you cannot be out classed by the AI.

Originally posted by culo
As for the clumsiness that was mentioned? Well, are you telling me all those special moves that you can pull of in WE7 are not clumsy? Or would you describe these as being "difficult to master and that is a good thing". In which case, is it not a good thing that this OTB move is made difficult to master?

And are you telling me that having to press R1 + R2 and LAS just to snap your guy out of yet another scripted run in WE is not a bit clumsy?

I don't think this was directed at me because I didn't mention clumsiness.

Originally posted by culo
I stand by my original comment that most of those against the idea are so because it comes from EA and they only look for the negatives...easy to do, just like it's easy to pick holes in the arguments. Hey, we all know FIFA2004 will suck but is it really necessary to dis everything EA try, just because it's EA?

And you are untitiled to your comments. But I think it is unfair to paint with such a broad brush. The feature and implementation in question is by our friends at EA. It will only make sense that those against it will have a problem with where it comes from.

 

[the_man]

I'd like to make myself clear on this topic. Off the ball runs is a good thing. It is essential to football. If no one made runs off the ball, how the heck would you play football.

My problem is not with off the ball running. My problem is with the way they have decided to implement it. I have a problem with controlling two players simulataneously while making a run (even temporarily).

If the implementation were - press L2 and 2 or 3 players make runs into different spaces and you can direct your pass to whomever, whereever, whenever, I would like the idea. That is how I think it should be implemented.

 

[culo]

Well, to be honest, I think the way that the video suggests it's being implemented sounds reasonable. You press a button which then sets the OTB mode into operation. You quickly pick which player you want to run (this sounds clumsy, for sure, but try looking upon it as "difficult to master")and which direction you want him to run in (you don't actually control him any more than that yet). You then release the pass (hopefully the accuracy of which will not always be a guaranteed 100% perfect pass) and then you take control over the receiving player properly.

Assuming that the rest of your team are still being controlled by an working AI model and some are thinking of making runs of their own rather than just standing around, it just gives you an opportunity to try a run that you would hope a fellow human would make anyway.

Also, is the 1-2 system in WE/PES not already along similar lines anyway? You essentially have some sort of control over 2 players simultanoeusly and we all seem to like it just fine.

 

[the_man]

Originally posted by culo
Well, to be honest, I think the way that the video suggests it's being implemented sounds reasonable. You press a button which then sets the OTB mode into operation. You quickly pick which player you want to run (this sounds clumsy, for sure, but try looking upon it as "difficult to master")and which direction you want him to run in (you don't actually control him any more than that yet). You then release the pass (hopefully the accuracy of which will not always be a guaranteed 100% perfect pass) and then you take control over the receiving player properly.

Assuming that the rest of your team are still being controlled by an working AI model and some are thinking of making runs of their own rather than just standing around, it just gives you an opportunity to try a run that you would hope a fellow human would make anyway.

Also, is the 1-2 system in WE/PES not already along similar lines anyway? You essentially have some sort of control over 2 players simultanoeusly and we all seem to like it just fine.

The "and which direction you want him to run in" is where the problems is. This crosses the line of controling more than one player.

Then why not make the AI better so that they make runs similar to a fellow human? Or better yet, instead of getting us into OTB mode, why not make a button so the AI makes your other players make agressive off the ball runs and you can pick who you pass to?

Similar, but fundamentally different. As I said a couple posts earlier. At no point do you have control of two players simulatneously. With this OTB implementation you do. This is where my problem is.

 

[valioso]

well.. but if you press a button and 3 players make off the ball runs... arent you also telling them where to go?

 

[jumbo]

Originally posted by culo
Also, is the 1-2 system in WE/PES not already along similar lines anyway? You essentially have some sort of control over 2 players simultanoeusly and we all seem to like it just fine.

nothing to do with OTB...

 

[culo]

Originally posted by the_man
The "and which direction you want him to run in" is where the problems is. This crosses the line of controling more than one player.

Then why not make the AI better so that they make runs similar to a fellow human? Or better yet, instead of getting us into OTB mode, why not make a button so the AI makes your other players make agressive off the ball runs and you can pick who you pass to?

Similar, but fundamentally different. As I said a couple posts earlier. At no point do you have control of two players simulatneously. With this OTB implementation you do. This is where my problem is.

Well, it's a pretty fine line but if you want the AI to make human-like runs anyway, why not, as a human, just make that decision for yourself? The stats should still determine the agility, speed, passing accuracy, etc of the move.

Not sure if I'd want to press a button and have lots of players suddenly make aggressive runs - wouldn't look too natural, - shouldn't they be making runs anyway - and it might give you too many easy options.

Anyway, I've had enough of this now....it's not as if I'll be buying it to try it out.

 

[Ashy]

Originally posted by the_man
I'd like to make myself clear on this topic. Off the ball runs is a good thing. It is essential to football. If no one made runs off the ball, how the heck would you play football.

My problem is not with off the ball running. My problem is with the way they have decided to implement it. I have a problem with controlling two players simulataneously while making a run (even temporarily).

If the implementation were - press L2 and 2 or 3 players make runs into different spaces and you can direct your pass to whomever, whereever, whenever, I would like the idea. That is how I think it should be implemented.

agree with that, ive no idea how its going to work, i just like the idea of them making the runs as ive got pissed off too many times at WE when your forward is running and no one else is bothering to go with you.

 

[the_man]

Originally posted by valioso
well.. but if you press a button and 3 players make off the ball runs... arent you also telling them where to go?

The AI tells them where to go, you tell them to move. You induce their movement, you do not control it or tell them where to go. Do you tell your player where to go on a 1-2 in WE? No, you tell him to move and the AI takes care of where he goes. Similar idea.

 

[the_man]

Originally posted by culo
Well, it's a pretty fine line but if you want the AI to make human-like runs anyway, why not, as a human, just make that decision for yourself? The stats should still determine the agility, speed, passing accuracy, etc of the move.

Not sure if I'd want to press a button and have lots of players suddenly make aggressive runs - wouldn't look too natural, - shouldn't they be making runs anyway - and it might give you too many easy options.

Anyway, I've had enough of this now....it's not as if I'll be buying it to try it out.

And you have just exposed what a lot of people have been trying to say including myself. Shouldn't they be making runs anyway? If you have read my posts, you will see I said I would perfer the AI to make OTB runs in the first place and that if the user should have any say in the matter, they can induce the runs (just as you induce your keeper to come out to get the ball, just as you induce your give and go receipiant to go) by pressing a button, but not control the run.

 

[Ashy]

yep, that seems spot on.

 

[culo]

well actually, i threw in that line partly in sarcasm because you'd already said they should be making runs, so why would you suggest pressing a button to initiate 3 or 4 players to make runs?

but also because the AI guys may or may not already be making runs of their own, but you'd at least have the option to initiaite and pick the direction of one particular guys run in a situation where he is stubbornly just standing there, as happens in WE from time to time....a manual over-ride to compensate for poor AI moments

 

[the_man]

Originally posted by culo
well actually, i threw in that line partly in sarcasm because you'd already said they should be making runs, so why would you suggest pressing a button to initiate 3 or 4 players to make runs?

but also because the AI guys may or may not already be making runs of their own, but you'd at least have the option to initiaite and pick the direction of one particular guys run in a situation where he is stubbornly just standing there, as happens in WE from time to time....a manual over-ride to compensate for poor AI moments

Ah, I see. I suggested that because IF (and only IF) the gamer must be involved with OTB movements, it is better for the gamer to induce them than control them, IMHO.

PS: The only reason I use 3 players is because the implementation that I saw in the video gave you the option for 3 players. It could be that the button induces the closest player to you to make a run...thats for the development team to ponder. What I'm suggesting is not far from what I remember the throw-in implementation was (which I wish WE had). You could induce runs by your players and throw to the one you want to throw to.

 

[simakperrce]

Originally posted by the_man
PS: The only reason I use 3 players is because the implementation that I saw in the video gave you the option for 3 players. It could be that the button induces the closest player to you to make a run...thats for the development team to ponder. What I'm suggesting is not far from what I remember the throw-in implementation was (which I wish WE had). You could induce runs by your players and throw to the one you want to throw to.

but as far as i deduce from the movies that's exactly what FIFAs model is proposing. you trigger OTB mode by pressing a certain button and the CPU offers you 2 or 3 optional targets which you can "loop" through. The player you select (or the player which is preselected by the AI) makes a run and if you want, you CAN (you don't have to) alter his running path before releasing the ball.

other than the fact that it will require quite some exercise to manage, what's so wrong or problematic about that? when you are on the real pitch and are about to play a ball you look around and pick among a different set of options the one which you deem most successful. same here. sometimes your pass and the path of the running player will mismatch due to a misunderstanding. same in real football.

it potentially all adds -- when implemented cleverly -- to realism and everything that adds to realism should be embraced. whether EA has the capacity and skill to implement it in a realistic way or not is another question and to be awaited.

i say: in dubio pro reo. let's wait and see before jumping to conclusions.

 

[simakperrce]

Originally posted by Han
--> Valioso:
No, that idea is not bad, but the way they try to implement it is very clumsy.
WE and PES let you use off the ball too by using manual attitude and that is a more intelligent way I think.

yeah, like for example these "intelligent" runs of players who keep running for a through ball that has long been intercepted.... very cool "manual" attitude i have to say...

and how can you declare something "clumsy" that you hadn't had a chance to try out yet? it looks like it will take some learning to execute... "skill" in other words... what's wrong about that?