fifa's off the ball control

[wheed007]

yo theCRO
are u stupid, the game isnt in the perspective of a player on the field
its in the perspective of a person controllling a team, and all this feature does is allows u to control more than one player at a time, its definately an amazing thing.

 

[theCRO]

Originally posted by wheed007
yo theCRO
are u stupid, the game isnt in the perspective of a player on the field
its in the perspective of a person controllling a team, and all this feature does is allows u to control more than one player at a time, its definately an amazing thing.

am I stupid?

Its in the perspective of a person controlling a team? An "amazing" thing?

Please, do go on, we'd love to hear your full argument. You've heard our arguments as to why such a feature is both unrealistic and the probable next cheap gimmick in EA's long line of useless cheap gimmicks, so please tell us all why a telepathic link with the ballhandler and/or 4 other players is an "amazing" thing...

Enlighten us, and don't namecall dude, it makes you and your posts easier to dismiss by other forumers...

 

[nickclubman]

my opinion...

Personally, I believe OTB Control will go down VERY well with football fans and gamers. I cannot see why OTB would be a bad feature, but rather an emotional and exciting one that comes with its own learning curve...

Now I can't see why this feature is unrealistic, to me it seems very logical. Players' make runs all the time, in football games you generally play with the whole 11 players', so why not get to control them Off The Ball when you're on it? I play football all the time and me and my mate always link up on our team, we point to where to make runs, do wonderful 1-2's and a lot more tactical play. I guess in a way when I tell him where to run, I'm doing a bit of Off The Ball Control, lol. So in that respect, FIFA 2004 should be very good if it's done correctly and doesn't come with a bug that ruins the experience...or crashes the game, hehe.

Even IGN said FIFA 2004 will be very, very good but they don’t know if it’ll beat PES3. By the way I’ve played the full version before it’s out (PES3) and it’s damn incredible!!! I got 4 matches hehe…AV IT!

Nick.

 

[nickclubman]

Originally posted by theCRO
am I stupid?

Its in the perspective of a person controlling a team? An "amazing" thing?

Please, do go on, we'd love to hear your full argument. You've heard our arguments as to why such a feature is both unrealistic and the probable next cheap gimmick in EA's long line of useless cheap gimmicks, so please tell us all why a telepathic link with the ballhandler and/or 4 other players is an "amazing" thing...

Enlighten us, and don't namecall dude, it makes you and your posts easier to dismiss by other forumers...

Mate, if it was PES3 and you had the option enabled to control only 1-player, then OTB control would be VERY stupid, but no you control the whole 11-players' on the team, so why not eh?

I know where you're coming from, but it's realistic man.

 

[theCRO]

Originally posted by nickclubman
Mate, if it was PES3 and you had the option enabled to control only 1-player, then OTB control would be VERY stupid, but no you control the whole 11-players' on the team, so why not eh?

I know where you're coming from, but it's realistic man.

clubman,

here's my argument, I'l spell it out for you again. It's unrealistic because:

1. Its plausable to assume that a run button will be useful using any team. Why dos Real Madrid move off the ball better than Anderlecht? If I had a run button, I could conceivably compensate for temmates lack of ability by manually moving players into space, creating more chances and scoring more goals. This would degrade the whole purpose of intelligent players, better players, player stats, player atributes etc. It's a self-defeating feature in this respect, because off the ball movement would be IDENTICAL for every team, given the player controlling them is the same.

2. Considering point 1, all player stats tht have to do with attributes other than those on the ball would become useless, so there would be no point in having these stats at all.

3. The purpose of a soccer game, IMO, is that you get to control the player with the ball. Given this, there exists no telepathic link that empowers the player in control of the ball to dictate the movements of one (or 3!) of his temmates. If there was such a link, I'd love to have this ability because I'd be a very rich man, perhaps a sports superstar because 100% of my passes would be accurate.

4. The ballhandler in real football seldom even tells his players where to go, they do it themselves. Which is why there's a difference between Arsenal and FK Dzerzelez.


So it is highly unrealistic and probably a crap, cheap, unthoughtful gimmick by EA.

So therefore I conclude that it is unrealistic, mate

 

[Ashy]

actually, what you have said there is flawed, as you claim if you could make a player of low stats make a run, he is therefore as good as a player with high stats. are you taking into consideration the fact that he could be slow etc, he may not get there, the player making the pass may not have the ability to put the ball where the run is made. just because a player makes a run doesnt necessarily mean he will get the ball...

in real football, players shout for the ball all the time, to say that someone shouting for another player to make a run doesnt happen is in fact, complete bollocks

could be a nice idea, guess we will find out when the game comes out.

 

[theCRO]

Originally posted by Ashy
actually, what you have said there is flawed, as you claim if you could make a player of low stats make a run, he is therefore as good as a player with high stats. are you taking into consideration the fact that he could be slow etc, he may not get there, the player making the pass may not have the ability to put the ball where the run is made. just because a player makes a run doesnt necessarily mean he will get the ball...

in real football, players shout for the ball all the time, to say that someone shouting for another player to make a run doesnt happen is in fact, complete bollocks

could be a nice idea, guess we will find out when the game comes out.

really? You just proved my point. The player RECEIVING the ball shouts for it, the player in control doesn't do the shouting, at least not as much as to dictate where 4 of his players will run. Read the post before you reply, its always a good idea

Of course that is considered, but I don't expect the SAME off the ball movement from NK Maribor as I do from Real Madrid, do you?
Nowhere did I say that players are as good as everyone else (reading the post helps), I merely pointed out that ALL teams player A controls will make the SAME runs off the ball, irrespective of their given attributes...

so to recap, the player with the ball doesn't shout out plays (he is probably too busy controling, looking for the pass, running, dribbling etc.), nor does he have mind control over his temmates, and if there are preset scripted runs you make manually, it defeats the principle that all teams move differently.

 

[ps2]

Well this new feature doesn't excite me that much; i haven't seen the vids yet but from what i've read i don't really see any advantge in this (in comparaison with we7).

Why? Because runs happens naturally in we7; when you start to know the team and the players you play with, you know when they are going to run and even where they are going to run. Just like in real life, playing well and as a team means knowing the players. You come to a point where there is nothing you can't do(in we7), cause you can fine tune everything:

- you can tell each and everyone of your players how to run when attacking;

- you can position them exactly where you want them to be;

- there's also the "in-game tactics" that not everyone use; if you find that your side backs are not attacking enough, just use a tactic to turn them in wingers at will...

Also there's the stats issue.This is very well implemented(specially in ML). Teamwork stats vary a lot, and if there is two(!) different stats: one that has to do with the team and another one that has to with understanding between two players. This JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE; when a new player comes to a team he doesn't know his teamates and how the teams plays. But with time he'll learn how to move...doesn't that happen in real life?

And what about player stats? When Sheva sees that Rui Costa has the ball doesn't he move differently than when Gattuso has it? And the star abilities like play maker and running don't you see that is makes a difference, and makes the player move differently? Ashy said that in real life players shout a lot to ask for the ball...the way i see it in we/pes games stats and the way you tune your team is the way the AI comunicates with you(i.e. the player that has the ball and the you control).

My point is that the AI, and the way the stats(team stats and player stats) make players interact with each other is what should make this or that player run or move a certain way. And in we/pes this seem to be very well implemented.

I hope you don't see this as an attempt to bash what could be an interesting feature. But the way i see it may well be another attempt from ea to throw some sand to ppl eyes, cause they still don't know how to program the game the way Konami do; where after a lot of games, fine tunning, using this player instead of that other one cause he plays better with the forward, etc, you find out exactly what you can and can't do JUST LIKE (a coach does) REAL LIFE...

 

[akvelocity365]

Originally posted by theCRO
4. The ballhandler in real football seldom even tells his players where to go, they do it themselves. Which is why there's a difference between Arsenal and FK Dzerzelez.

I have to back this statement up! I have never seen any professional matches where the players are pointing, nodding or whatever to tell a teammate where to go! That is telegraphing to the max, and at the professional ranks, you might as well pass the ball to the defenders if you are going to play like that! It's the teams ability to find open space, support the ball handler, and make the smart runs to give the handler options. This person has to have the vision to spot out these things so that they can make the best decision, and ultimately, make the best pass! But it all has to start out with the teammates making their own decisions on how to, where to, and when to make their runs!

 

[culo]

I can't help but feel that those against the idea are against it because it comes from EA and no matter what idea EA have, it must be bad. As soon as EA are mentioned, they go into attack mode. If KCET had come up with this, the same people would doubtless be trumpeting it as a great gameplay break-through, opening up more freedom on the pitch.

I agree with the guy that said it all depends on how EA implement it and I think that this is where my faith in the idea comes to an end. I just don't think EA have the programming talent to pull it off with a satisfactory outcome. Even if they did, the rest of their gameplay tends to be so poor as to not merit purchasing the game anyway.

In principle, the idea is reasonable. WE/PES are essentially player/manager games as you are in control of team tactics and player selections. Yet you cannot actually "talk" to your players to tell them exatcly how you want them to play. Granted, the tactics editor gives some scope for this but it's hardly the same as a real manager and players talking to each other, discuss and praticisng moves and tactics.

And I must say that whenever I go to watch football, players with the ball quite often point and shout to where they want guys to make a run to. Managers will also shout to their players during the game and talk to them at half time. I don't see it as being unrealistic...no more unrealistic than controlling a little man with a little waggly stick and a few buttons.

This feature should allow that bit more freedom to do what you want your players to do, not what KCET's AI model decides to make them do. After all, it's me playing the game and the more I can impose my way of playing, both on and off the ball, the better. Let's face it, you don't even have full control of one player in WE/PES, what with the CPU continually making him stop when you don't want him, keep running when you want him to stop, changing direction or jogging slowly to make sure he doesn't get to the ball first, etc...KCET's usual AI cheats.

But the bottom line is that this is EA and they'll surely make a mess of it. I do see it as being a recipe for a dead-cert pass where every time you play the OTB move, it works irrespective of the abilities and positions of the passing player, the receiving player and any defenders involved.

KCET should take note of the idea and do it properly. Indeed, they should take it further and implement similar things in dead-ball situations. I can't be the only one fed up when I get a free-kick and my only option is to shoot. Why can't I have 2 or 3 guys around the ball, get one guy to make a dummy shot and then make a run, then the 2nd guy passes to him, etc? These sort of things should be practised on the training pitch and the more you practise, the better the players become at it.

I appreciate the risk that every team will be pulling off the same moves and runs but so long as players passing accuracy, passing speed, reactions, response, etc are taken into account, then there is no reason why playing the move should be guarateed a success. A bit like the new 360 spin, all players can try it, not all can execute it successfully.

 

[valioso]

Originally posted by culo
I can't help but feel that those against the idea are against it because it comes from EA and no matter what idea EA have, it must be bad. As soon as EA are mentioned, they go into attack mode. If KCET had come up with this, the same people would doubtless be trumpeting it as a great gameplay break-through, opening up more freedom on the pitch.

I agree with the guy that said it all depends on how EA implement it and I think that this is where my faith in the idea comes to an end. I just don't think EA have the programming talent to pull it off with a satisfactory outcome. Even if they did, the rest of their gameplay tends to be so poor as to not merit purchasing the game anyway.

In principle, the idea is reasonable. WE/PES are essentially player/manager games as you are in control of team tactics and player selections. Yet you cannot actually "talk" to your players to tell them exatcly how you want them to play. Granted, the tactics editor gives some scope for this but it's hardly the same as a real manager and players talking to each other, discuss and praticisng moves and tactics.

And I must say that whenever I go to watch football, players with the ball quite often point and shout to where they want guys to make a run to. Managers will also shout to their players during the game and talk to them at half time. I don't see it as being unrealistic...no more unrealistic than controlling a little man with a little waggly stick and a few buttons.

This feature should allow that bit more freedom to do what you want your players to do, not what KCET's AI model decides to make them do. After all, it's me playing the game and the more I can impose my way of playing, both on and off the ball, the better. Let's face it, you don't even have full control of one player in WE/PES, what with the CPU continually making him stop when you don't want him, keep running when you want him to stop, changing direction or jogging slowly to make sure he doesn't get to the ball first, etc...KCET's usual AI cheats.

But the bottom line is that this is EA and they'll surely make a mess of it. I do see it as being a recipe for a dead-cert pass where every time you play the OTB move, it works irrespective of the abilities and positions of the passing player, the receiving player and any defenders involved.

KCET should take note of the idea and do it properly. Indeed, they should take it further and implement similar things in dead-ball situations. I can't be the only one fed up when I get a free-kick and my only option is to shoot. Why can't I have 2 or 3 guys around the ball, get one guy to make a dummy shot and then make a run, then the 2nd guy passes to him, etc? These sort of things should be practised on the training pitch and the more you practise, the better the players become at it.

I appreciate the risk that every team will be pulling off the same moves and runs but so long as players passing accuracy, passing speed, reactions, response, etc are taken into account, then there is no reason why playing the move should be guarateed a success. A bit like the new 360 spin, all players can try it, not all can execute it successfully.

EA is implementing it on free kicks and corner kicks and for the defense as well.. whats video #2

 

[culo]

It's a good idea, it's a shame it's EA.

 

[Ashy]

i agree with you there mate, if WE7 had pioneered this feature it would be the greatest thing ever and the next major step in football games...

oh, and theCRO - i did read your post, i just didnt agree with it. i dont mind you dont agree with me, everyone has an opinion, you should try understanding that at some point in time

 

[Paco de Lucia]

Originally posted by culo


KCET should take note of the idea and do it properly.

This is exactly why I hope EA pulls it off and improves 2004's gameplay. It'll light a fire under Konami to look for even more innovative ways to improve their gameplay.

The equation as I see it:

FIFA series -- gameplay is flawed at its core and OTB control won't change that BUT will make it much more tolerable.

WE series -- game is already brilliant at its core but that doesn't mean Konami can sit on their laurels. They need new innovations to make the core gameplay even more brilliant. They have a lot of little flaws to iron out.

 

[theCRO]

Originally posted by culo
I can't help but feel that those against the idea are against it because it comes from EA and no matter what idea EA have, it must be bad. As soon as EA are mentioned, they go into attack mode. If KCET had come up with this, the same people would doubtless be trumpeting it as a great gameplay break-through, opening up more freedom on the pitch.

hmmm, speak for yourself. We've had threads about this before, refer to them please. This was months ago when none of knew what EA or Konami were up to in regards to this issue.

I think this implementation would take something out of the WE series, and WE gamers would be poorer for it.

 

[culo]

The initial comments by yourself and others showed some people hadn't even watched the videos before starting to make disparaging comments about presets and scripting, purely because it's EA.

It seems to me that you are completely contradicting yourself anyway - you say the new idea will mean more scripts yet you say WE/PES AI already does the runs for you. Well, if the AI makes the run for you, that seems to me to be scripting, rather you make a manual, unscripted OTB run which EA are suggesting...and talk about presets when it is clearly not a preset from open play but manual intervention by the human.

Oh, and when you set your tactics before a match in WE7, do you think it's then realistic to simply press a button during the game and suddenly have all your players suddenly do a right-side attack or switch formation from 4-4-2 to 5-3-2, then back again a fews minutes later - you already have very "unrealistic" control over your players.

This OTB won't make FIFA a good game because we all know how poor the core gameplay is, but at least some of us remain open-minded to new ideas, irrespective of which company comes up with them.

And I must say that given some of the annoying holes and glitches in the KCET AI which have been well documented, I'll be only to happy to take manual control of more players.

 

[theCRO]

Originally posted by culo
The initial comments by yourself and others showed some people hadn't even watched the videos before starting to make disparaging comments about presets and scripting, purely because it's EA.

It seems to me that you are completely contradicting yourself anyway - you say the new idea will mean more scripts yet you say WE/PES AI already does the runs for you. Well, if the AI makes the run for you, that seems to me to be scripting, rather you make a manual, unscripted OTB run which EA are suggesting...and talk about presets when it is clearly not a preset from open play but manual intervention by the human.

Oh, and when you set your tactics before a match in WE7, do you think it's then realistic to simply press a button during the game and suddenly have all your players suddenly do a right-side attack or switch formation from 4-4-2 to 5-3-2, then back again a fews minutes later - you already have very "unrealistic" control over your players.

contradicting? what? where? If you think WE runs are scripted, then you either haven't played WE or don't know what the term "scripted" implies with regards to a football game. Either way, take some time and discover.

Teams change tactics during matches ALL THE TIME, which sport are you watching? That second comment makes me doubt you have watched a game of soccer in you life, seriously...

 

[culo]

what an idiot

 

[theCRO]

?? this coming from a guy who thinks team cannot change tactics in the middle of a match

 

[ps2]

Originally posted by culo
The initial comments by yourself and others showed some people hadn't even watched the videos before starting to make disparaging comments about presets and scripting, purely because it's EA.

It seems to me that you are completely contradicting yourself anyway - you say the new idea will mean more scripts yet you say WE/PES AI already does the runs for you. Well, if the AI makes the run for you, that seems to me to be scripting, rather you make a manual, unscripted OTB run which EA are suggesting...and talk about presets when it is clearly not a preset from open play but manual intervention by the human.

Oh, and when you set your tactics before a match in WE7, do you think it's then realistic to simply press a button during the game and suddenly have all your players suddenly do a right-side attack or switch formation from 4-4-2 to 5-3-2, then back again a fews minutes later - you already have very "unrealistic" control over your players.

This OTB won't make FIFA a good game because we all know how poor the core gameplay is, but at least some of us remain open-minded to new ideas, irrespective of which company comes up with them.

And I must say that given some of the annoying holes and glitches in the KCET AI which have been well documented, I'll be only to happy to take manual control of more players.

Do you watch football?? Don't you see teams playing in different formations when attacking and defending?

And the AI in KCET doesn't make the runs for you; the way the player moves is a combination of stats and formation setting, etc... Is there still some scripted things in KCET games? Ofcourse and it'll take a long time until there aren't!

And about controlling more than one player, i still think that it's better to fine tune everything and wait for the AI to make their moves. The fact that you can tell your player to move in 2 different directions is a step in that direction...

Oh, and about scripted runs and movements don't forget that it happens IN REAL LIFE...