FIFA MASTER 08 - Development plan

[StevePitts]

best wishes to Dave Witts...I feel sorry for him and the way Sweetpatch is going

In what sense?? Just because Rinaldo has decided to make his program(s) shareware does not mean that this is a 'policy' of Sweetpatch, and I don't see anything else on the site that warrants your comments. Please elucidate

 

[Jomi]

In what sense?? Just because Rinaldo has decided to make his program(s) shareware does not mean that this is a 'policy' of Sweetpatch, and I don't see anything else on the site that warrants your comments. Please elucidate

Ok then I will elucidate dear Steve..

I know Sweetpatch since 2004 because I worked there ( go in the archives to check...more than 50.000 downloads at the time ) and I see that the site is becoming more and more commercial. That's not a critic, that's a fact...more and more advertisement banners, more and more things that are not directly related to the fifa game etc..etc..( same with socceraccess a.k.a soccergaming ) .
Then came CEP with its crypted database ...( first time in history )... I wrote to Dave at the time to tell him my displeasure...He did nothing...Oh yeah, the solution was found to make a special version of Rinaldo's CM to accomodate el signore ockham...Fantastic !
And now I'm upset with the shareware thing ( 14 euros it's crazy ) . I'm not sure it 's the sole decision of Rinaldo ...Let's say CM will be downloaded 50.000 times or just 10.000 times because a lot of people won't accept to pay for it , that makes a minimum of 140 .000 euros...!!!!!!!For one person ...Do you find this realistic...? as Zefilio writes in another post , I'm not sure that EA will let that happen without a contract...
Or you need a really good lawyer.
The solution is the donation banner...A guy who made a similar program for PES did that...then it's everyone's choice to decide...same with a lot of things in life...You can donate to millions of organisation ( political, religious, ecologic,etc..etc..) if you believe that they deserve your money...

peace
jm

 

[Wittser]

Hi guys

I have sat and watched this thread for the last days and am so sad to see comments about people who have worked very hard to provide so much additional benefit to the world for their FIFA gameplay for no money ever.

Rinaldo has worked so hard to provide quality utilities for our FIFA gameplay. He has never asked for anything out of us and done this all in his own time. As with all of us, this is his passion and he does it for the love of creating tools that are used by us all. He has never bad mouthed anyone and I am very sad to see some of the things he has been accused of when he has made a decision to try and gain a little recompense for all the effort he commits to his projects.

We all do this work for free and spend 100s of hours a year trying to add value to EAs game (that most of us in the world pay for the privilege).

All Rinaldo has done is try and look at moving on his developments and to gain a small fee of appreciation. I would certainly pay him to say thank you for all his great work. But I do also agree that one of the positive things to come out of this discussion has been the proposal that perhaps he should do a PayPal donation scheme. Definately something worth him considering.

To also prove that we all do this for the love and that we all believe everyone has a good side to them. The issue of the CEP project has been raised a few times and our support for the project has been disrespected.

I just want to say that the main reason I have supported OckHAM, as I have many people over the 8 years of the Sweetpatch project, is that although he may have had some communication and relationship issues, I always believe you can create good out of people and decided to persevere with Ock as he was creating a great product that was downloaded many many times all around the world. I would certainly hope people could respect that we were trying to give him a chance to create good and learn from his mistakes rather than just give up on him. Ock has certainly matured from the young lad he was when he first arrived on the scene.

I just want to finish by saying that in the 8 years of being involved in the FIFA scene I have made many fantastic friends, I have never gone out of my way to upset anybody, and have always tried to support anybody that wants to add value to the FIFA scene.

Please let us all move on from this point and enjoy what FIFA 08 brings to the world and all the great kits, patches and utilities that will be developed by the community.

Let us all be appreciative of what we each bring to the community and have fun playing a game. There is enough bad stuff going on around us in the world for us all to be disrespectful over a game and the creations that are made to add value to it.

One final piece of information, with regard the FIFA Master mini site going offline (only temporarily I hope), I received an email last night from a very distraught Rinaldo who asked me to take it down whilst he considered his future.

Let's hope that the very sad events of the last few days can blow over and we can all get on playing and enjoying our games and respecting people that help to make the community what it is.

Lots of love to you all and keep on playing and enjoying.
Dave

 

[makispla]

Dear Rinaldo
I am writing to you because I want to share with you some concerns of mine, regarding the pay features of CMO8...Of course it's your right to do whatever you like with your programs; you can write them in any pc language you like, release them whenever and wherever you like, make them easy or hard to understand, make them green or red, in fact you can even avoid to make them if you feel that they are too much time consuming... But be very careful my friend! Don’t try to make money from the editing of an EA game. It’s illegal and although over the years companies tolerate the editing of their products (because they add value to them) I don't think that they can bear the thought of someone gaining profit on their back...
There are certainly other issues that are raised by your decision to go commercial...
A) Time. I wonder if you have spent more time in contributing in fifa editing than...let's say pede or keegan or even ocham....
b) The threat that your tools will disappear from the public domain if they will be cracked makes me to worry for you even more. Even the thought of it it's so naive that clearly shows that you are not an expert of Intellectual Property...
c)14euros...I can think a lot of full featured shareware programs with much more than a db editor and three graphic scripts in them that cost less ;not to mention avast,ad-aware,mozilla,kerio firewall,gimp,audacity and so on that are absolutely free!
D) The community spirit. Which will go down the drain if we begin to ask money for tools, graphics, gameplays, patches etc...
e) Your status. Over the last days you became from THE god of fifa editing ,the guy who wants 14 euros from us just to activate some buttons in his program...now that's what I call bad rep!
To sum it up. DON’T go commercial.Apart from disappointing, IT’S DANGEROUS
Develop your programs with the help of the community, and try to make the experience (that you gathered doing all these great programs) useful in your life
Thanks again for making our gaming better

 

[Dante_1901]

I respect you Rinaldo, I thank you for all the great tools you have made for the FIFA community ... no doubt your name is written with the other great FIFA tools designers like Ariel Santarelli and Chau Le, to name some.

But charging for FIFA edition programs ... man, that's just out of the FIFA edition spirit ... the same spirit that make a lot of people make kits, faces, and all kinds of stuff for free, just for the passion to do it ... "por el amor al arte", as we say in spanish.

Just imagine if everyone would charge for the patches they make. That's just not the idea.

There are so many ways to get rewards for your talent ... advertising, donations, you name it.

P.D. And a little comment to all the FIFA community, don't make a huge thing of this, this thread is meant to just discuss and give ideas ... there are some sad comments that just rip all the respect that Rinaldo deserves.

 

[Royce]

CM is bar none the best tool available to edit FIFA, I have no issue paying for it. Hell, as much as I used it for 07 I was planning on donating some money towards 08.

I would be happy to pay for such a superior product. I just want to be able to use & enjoy 08 like it did 07.


Everyone b!tching about having to pay for it, the answer is two fold: A) Get a goddamn job or Don't use CM08. BOOYA. Suck on that.

 

[mrliioadin]

I think given all of the time that rinaldo has commited to the project and the quality of the work we puts out deserves a hell of a lot of respect. I would strongly strongly urge everyone to donate to him through paypal just for having to godlike privilage of using his tools in '07 let alone '08. Let's face it, if he locks up some features in '08 and makes money that way, it would be hard for anyone not to lock up MORE features in '09 and earn more money.

Rinaldo, you might think you're in a tough spot, but I think you could really get your money's worth releasing a full version of the editor for free using paypal as an option to donate.

We want to see you succeed. We want your products and we want you to be happy. We don't want to be taken advantage of.

The key points here:

1. You are putting too much effort into creating too many tools... It may be time to decide that the features from '07 are good enough and the modifications for compatibility with '08 are good enough for now.

2. You may need to limit how much time your spend on it every night. set a timer... after 2 hours or 4 hours just leave it alone... if CM08 doesn't come out until Dec. '07 that's fine... We can be 2,3 maybe 4 months behind the actually release date... with 200,000 downloads in '07 and the increasing popularity of these forums maybe EA will notice an odd spike in sales in January of every year and end up hiring you. God knows they could make a truckload off your tools if marketed properly.

3. You have more support than you know. We want to help but many of us are just not qualified to do the kind of work you really need. Let us know if there are little things we can do to help. I can at least help ya out with some of the english on different warnings. "You must save before to create the patch" didn't make a whole lot of sense but it's easy enough to figure out what you meant and give you a better way of wording it. Plus there are ton's of people that could help you translate it to different languages to make it available on other websites as well.

Forcing us to pay won't solve your problems. But we are ultimately here to help.

 

[Keegan]

My two cents: I think I understand why Rinaldo would like to make money off his outstanding efforts for the community. However, I must add that the shareware idea does not seem to be the best way of doing this. A major part of marketing is goodwill. The goodwill generated by CM07 is priceless, as the 200,000 downloads would indicate. I would respectfully suggest firstly to Rinaldo that the fact that he can create a program with the depth and functionality of CM07 means that he now has a magnificent resume addition, with which to make the demands on a prospective employer. That employer, however is not the fellow Fifa gamer who uses your tools. I strongly suggest you use the PayPal option that has been named earlier. My next suggestion is for all the people who have made their opinions known in a very strong manner. I know from experience that in situations such as the one Rinaldo finds himself in, that one can be a victim of their own abilities and success. How many of us have posted a question in Rinaldo's thread and have become annoyed when a day has gone by without a response from him? How many of us have sent him emails asking for fixes or sending him databases for his analysis and correction? We need to realize that he has a life and needs that go beyond the boundaries of a football simulation.Maybe if we are more tolerant and understanding and didn't ask questions that came about because we didn't take the time to understand how the tools he makes work, we would not have this discussion now. I apologize for the long-windedness of this post, but as a faithful user (and beta-tester of both CM07 and CC07) I have an appreciation of what goes into creating these tools that many of you do not have.

Rinaldo, keep up the good work, and please reconsider the shareware option.

 

[MelvinSmiley]

CM is bar none the best tool available to edit FIFA, I have no issue paying for it. Hell, as much as I used it for 07 I was planning on donating some money towards 08.

I would be happy to pay for such a superior product. I just want to be able to use & enjoy 08 like it did 07.


Everyone b!tching about having to pay for it, the answer is two fold: A) Get a goddamn job or Don't use CM08. BOOYA. Suck on that.

What have we here...another smartass boy.

 

[mogolos]

CM is bar none the best tool available to edit FIFA, I have no issue paying for it. Hell, as much as I used it for 07 I was planning on donating some money towards 08.

I would be happy to pay for such a superior product. I just want to be able to use & enjoy 08 like it did 07.


Everyone b!tching about having to pay for it, the answer is two fold: A) Get a goddamn job or Don't use CM08. BOOYA. Suck on that.

can anyone do this?

 

[mrliioadin]

How many of us have posted a question in Rinaldo's thread and have become annoyed when a day has gone by without a response from him? How many of us have sent him emails asking for fixes or sending him databases for his analysis and correction? We need to realize that he has a life and needs that go beyond the boundaries of a football simulation.Maybe if we are more tolerant and understanding and didn't ask questions that came about because we didn't take the time to understand how the tools he makes work, we would not have this discussion now.

There were quite a few people who didn't understand the intricate details of the editor itself but that knew enough about editing and using the tool that they could answer some questions.

I personally would, as often as possible, go into the CM07 thread just to answer some questions so Rinaldo didn't have to. I understood he was busy and felt that this was the best way I could help him.

cc06 has an entire forum for questions and comments. We need to set one up for CM08 so that we can sticky FAQ's and post suggestions for quicker more efficient editing. Also Tizmo's page full of CMP file links could be posted here. Maybe a few of us could dedicate a bit more time to helping to answer the questions we know the answers to. That should help a bit.

 

[Jomi]

CM 07 has a fantastic " help " file where you can find more than 90% of your asked questions...Everything is there good explained for the basic user...the problem is that a lot of guys are too lazy to read it or to browse the forum with the search button...and each one has the possibility to learn the structure files of the game too...thanks to tools like ea graph, fshed, file master and a few other ones...everyone was a newbie in the beginning

 

[arayas]

Ideal way: Rinaldo just released his CM08 with a PayPal option and everybody is happy. We have our 08 ideal game and he's spending his money.

Yeah! But why to be easy when we like to do things in the hard way.

I think we are spending to much time discussing about one man. Is clear, Rinaldo closed the door and it's not giving a dime about our opinions.
So, show must go on without him. In my case I realise that I spend to much time around this ugly, stupid game and my option was:uninstall. The fact that we are buying a good-for-nothing-old-same-game in hope that after 9284284284276 modifications we are happy to play'it, seems hillarious. And after Rinaldo tell as his great plan, I'm sick and tired about this FIFA editing problem. I demand that this tread to be renamed to FIFA MASTER 08 - Un-Development plan. I don't think you will see Rinaldo around to soon. Or his work, with or without money.

 

[Keegan]

CM 07 has a fantastic " help " file where you can find more than 90% of your asked questions...Everything is there good explained for the basic user...the problem is that a lot of guys are too lazy to read it or to browse the forum with the search button...and each one has the possibility to learn the structure files of the game too...thanks to tools like ea graph, fshed, file master and a few other ones...everyone was a newbie in the beginning

That was basically my point - some of the things that people posted about were already covered in the help files or previously in the thread - but over-zealous and lazy users made what was a pleasant hobby for Rinaldo seem like a 24/7 job. Anybody who does a job expects to be paid for it. That is why I stopped taking requests in my humble boot thread, and also why I made my tutorial. I always try to help whoever has a problem with whatever Fifa-related issues I was able to, and I know that there are others who operated in a similar way. It is so easy to just jump on Rinaldo's case and accuse him of all sorts of things - but until you've actually been in his shoes, you wouldn't understand how tedious it can be. There is no fun in having your hobby changed into a job.

 

[SAMUELKATALAN]

Hope there is any oportunity for kitmaster 728 i know you can do it mate

 

[B9Goal]

I'd be satisfied if Rinaldo only added an option to open the FIFA 08 database with CM07. Besides making your own formations in game, there isn't really much of a difference between the 07 and 08 databases. Or is there?

 

[StevePitts]

I see that the site is becoming more and more commercial. That's not a critic, that's a fact...more and more advertisement banners, more and more things that are not directly related to the fifa game etc..etc..( same with socceraccess a.k.a soccergaming )

No doubt about it, but isn't that a question of the sites becoming victims of their own success?? More interest means more users who suck more bandwidth requiring larger servers etc. Someone has to pay for all that and advertising then becomes a necessary evil for most. I'm sure that Dave Witts is just as aware of the negative impact of that as we users are.

Then came CEP with its crypted database ...( first time in history )... I wrote to Dave at the time to tell him my displeasure...He did nothing...

I've never understood the fuss over that (it took me all of twenty minutes to figure out what was being done, in order to add support for CEP derived careers to EAFFAnalyser, and it could be worked around with about thirty seconds work after installing the CEP) but I really don't see that it was up to Dave to do anything about it other than pass on users' discontent to OckHAM. Of course he could have opted to dump the CEP altogether, but you could reasonably argue (especially from his position) that that would be counter-productive.

And now I'm upset with the shareware thing ( 14 euros it's crazy ) . I'm not sure it 's the sole decision of Rinaldo

Well, we have no evidence one way or the other, so I guess it is a moot point unless Dave or Rinaldo can provide a factual comment.

Let's say CM will be downloaded 50.000 times or just 10.000 times because a lot of people won't accept to pay for it , that makes a minimum of 140 .000 euros...!!!!!!!For one person ...Do you find this realistic

Actually no, but for a completely different reason. I've seen a figure of 200,000 bandied about for CM downloads, but I'd be prepared to bet that translates to less than 20,000 active installations and no more than 2,000 regular users (of the kind that might be prepared to pay for particular features). Even if half of those cough up we are only talking about 14,000 euros, which doesn't seem like enough to retire on.

as Zefilio writes in another post , I'm not sure that EA will let that happen without a contract...

and as I've responded to his post, I don't think he's right, because we are talking about editing data and I don't see anything in CM that infringes on EA's IP in any meaningful way (though that's not to say that that would stop them sending 'cease and desist' notices, or even sending the boys round)

The solution is the donation banner...

No dispute from me, and I reckon it would make more sense from Rinaldo's perspective, because that way you don't have to worry about a registered user base that expect support when the program has bugs, and it allows folk to contribute as much as they feel able to (rather than setting a fixed price on his work that might well be beyond the means of some)

Anyway, thanks for explaining the sweetpatch comment, I was worried that I'd missed something

Everyone b!tching about having to pay for it, the answer is two fold: A) Get a goddamn job or Don't use CM08. BOOYA. Suck on that.

I nearly let that pass - the oxygen of publicity and all that - but in the end I decided I could not because it is so hugely insensitive. I am sure there are folk on here who already have a job but for whom 14 euros would represent a large portion of their wages (not everyone comes from a nice rich western economy) and in general I don't see the argument being money as such, but a general principle. Next time, please think before you post, and try to show some empathy.

Besides making your own formations in game, there isn't really much of a difference between the 07 and 08 databases. Or is there?

Assuming that it hasn't changed from the demo, then no (I don't have the game, and don't intend to drop thirty quid for a roster update and a handful of gameplay tweaks) but there are some significant changes to the player data that would require a major re-work of the attribute page.

 

[RobbieD_PL]

Just a post that I said in the boycott thread:

I really think that in light of all this debate that the Pay-Pal donation is the way to go. On one hand you've got the author rinaldo, wanting to make some profits from his hard labour, and some users who are willing to comply which is fair enough; but on the other hand, the majority of users are unable to pay compulsory liscencing fees in order to unlock those extra features. Despite the claims of those who can pay, saying, tough luck go and pay anyway, this is not feasible. Thus there would undoubtedly be a limit on the number of downloads compared to the 200,000 from CM07, as the number of users who downloaded a program for free wont be able to do so thru online banking so to say. So for those that can pay, they are still able to thru donating on Pay-Pal, and deservedly so for such programs as Rinaldo has developed. But obliging the thousands of users who can't just locks them out of the ever-increasing possibilities of FIFA-editing, something that would be terrible to bear witness to.

 

[mogolos]

I strongly apologize to Mr Pitts, I have just become a victim of missunderstanding as my english r not as good as I hope...

 

[mrliioadin]

I've seen a figure of 200,000 bandied about for CM downloads, but I'd be prepared to bet that translates to less than 20,000 active installations and no more than 2,000 regular users (of the kind that might be prepared to pay for particular features). Even if half of those cough up we are only talking about 14,000 euros, which doesn't seem like enough to retire on.

I've got it on three computers... I'm sure I'm not the only one who uses multiple computers either. I doubt this is the norm, but again this would begin to increase the figure previously mentioned. Not to mention to have a full featured editor on each my 14 Euros just went up to 42. Admittedly I could do without the third PC if I had to but I would still be using 2 and spending 28.

There are more numbers floating around out there than even we have thought about.