Was the Armenian "Deportation" a "genocide"?

[CapaJr]

Wait, so now you're saying the men, and wait, let me add to this...women and children were rebelling? So, the government rounded them up, either led them out to die or killed the non-combatants?

Yes. Precisely.

Sounds a lot like the defense at Nuremberg...

Ottomans had no racism against the Armenians.
During the 19th century, 22 ethnically Armenian officers worked within the Ottoman Government. Although the Ottomans were ruled by the Sultan, the Governing body also had lots of influence on the empires foreign policy.
Istanbul is also another example, because during the events of this so-called Armenian Genocide, tens of thousands of Armenians were living in this city.
And these events had no impact on them , they werent arrested one by one and placed in concentration camps.
I mean i personally can confirm this information because one of my old friend is ethically Armenian, religiously Ortodox Christian but yet she opposes the Armenian Genocide claims, saying that efforts like these ruin the relationship between the two cultures.

I'd also like to know, if it was not your country involved why they have you learn these "it was for our own protection, it was to stop a rebellion" defenses for something your country didn't commit?

Why should i be worried of what they have taught me in school? Afterall, the Armenian lobby is one of the most resourceful community both in France and in United States. This reality has always been there, so my government has all the right to teach the accurate history to its people.
As long as the Armenian lobby influences the political views of these two powerful nations, all we can do is to teach our children , so they can teach the Armenian lie to future generations.

 

[Joe]

Why would people lie about being massacred?

Why are their photos? And countless testimonies?

And why did you just ignore the two points essentially paralleling your story to what happened in the Holocaust?

 

[CapaJr]

Why would people lie about being massacred?

Why are their photos? And countless testimonies?

And why did you just ignore the two points essentially paralleling your story to what happened in the Holocaust?

Look.
Germans wanted to get rid of the entire race of jews
They wanted to make sure there wasnt one single alive jew was left in Germany.
But what i have just told you in the previous msg proves that what happened withing the Ottoman borders was a completely different story.
The intentions were very different.
There were tens of thousands of Armenians in the biggest city of the empire, how come the Ottomans didnt hunt them down too then?
BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT AGAINST A CERTAIN RACE, ETHICITY OR A RELIGIOUS BELIEF.
Man thats how the Ottoman Empire had survived for centuries , there were jews,bulgars,greeks,romanians, albanians, arabs, armenians, the entire empire was consisted of minorities.

 

[Tom]

Man thats how the Ottoman Empire had survived for centuries , there were jews,bulgars,greeks,romanians, albanians, arabs, armenians, the entire empire was consisted of minorities.

Like Arsenal right? I'm sorry i just wanted to try and diffuse this heated arguement a bit

 

[champdave]

Like Arsenal right? I'm sorry i just wanted to try and diffuse this heated arguement a bit

You just bought the thread down a level.

I approve

 

[CapaJr]

Like Arsenal right? I'm sorry i just wanted to try and diffuse this heated arguement a bit

Let me tell you of one of the accomplishments of this "racist" empire, the Ottomans.

The greatest influx of Jews into Asia Minor and the Ottoman Empire, however, occurred during the reign of Mehmed's successor, Beyazid II (1481-1512), after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain and Portugal. The sultan issued a formal invitation to Jews expelled from Spain and Portugal, and they started arriving in the empire in great numbers

Some examples of Jews who reached high positions in the Ottoman court and administration include Mehmed II's minister of Finance ("defterdar") Hekim Yakup Pasa

The Jewish population of Ottoman Empire had reached nearly 500,000 at the start of the 20th century.

 

[Joe]

Look.
Germans wanted to get rid of the entire race of jews
They wanted to make sure there wasnt one single alive jew was left in Germany.
But what i have just told you in the previous msg proves that what happened withing the Ottoman borders was a completely different story.
The intentions were very different.
There were tens of thousands of Armenians in the biggest city of the empire, how come the Ottomans didnt hunt them down too then?
BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT AGAINST A CERTAIN RACE, ETHICITY OR A RELIGIOUS BELIEF.
Man thats how the Ottoman Empire had survived for centuries , there were jews,bulgars,greeks,romanians, albanians, arabs, armenians, the entire empire was consisted of minorities.

Intent doesn't matter. It's the actions that were taken and at the scale they were. I can look into the claim of the Ottoman's sparing the lives of some but I also am with the understanding that this was done for certain ulterior motives as well...

Look when you have documentation of letters between leading officials essentially saying "We can take care of the Armenian's now under the curtain of war..." is a huge deal. Also, the Armenian intellectuals were some of the first to be killed...this has occurred in other genocidal situations is usually a tell-tale sign--the beginning intent to destroy a groups' main representation and leadership...because with a group's voice taken away what can be done?

By definition, you don't have to have the intent to destroy an entire group or even do it for an act to be called genocide.

 

[CapaJr]

By definition, you don't have to have the intent to destroy an entire group or even do it for an act to be called genocide.

the definition i found in wikipedia for the term "genocide" ;

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, religious or national group.

The systematic destruction is equal to what the Nazis have done to the Jews.
What the Ottomans have done is nothing systematic, if it was, the lives of thousands of Armenians would have been vanished in the big cities, such as Istanbul.

 

[Joe]

Uhm does a deportation law sound systematic? I mean that's how they died being "deported."

And the reason the Armenian's were a supposed threat to the Ottomans? Because they did not have equal rights or status (e.g. not considered for entrance into the state) and they were requesting them around the time.

The fact that tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of women and children--non-combatants--is nearly enough proof for genocide for me anyway...

I mean maybe America should stop selectively targeting potential terrorists and just "deport" every Arab man, woman and child to a remote place in the Nevada desert? Or just kill them.

If that seems reasonable to you then this discussion is over...

 

[CapaJr]

Uhm does a deportation law sound systematic? I mean that's how they died being "deported."

And the reason the Armenian's were a supposed threat to the Ottomans? Because they did not have equal rights or status (e.g. not considered for entrance into the state) and they were requesting them around the time.

The fact that tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of women and children--non-combatants--is nearly enough proof for genocide for me anyway...

I mean maybe America should stop selectively targeting potential terrorists and just "deport" every Arab man, woman and child to a remote place in the Nevada desert? Or just kill them.

The majority of the deported Armenians were living in the eastern anatolian region of the empire, and far away from the big cities.
The region of those deported Armenians were also the same regions that was suffering chaos and civil unrest.
The Armenians that were living with harmony among the Turks, those that were in the big cities were not targeted by anyone, that how they still remain in those cities, having their own schools, churches, organizations.

there was one of those "selectively" targeted Al Queda terrorist shipped back to Turkey the other day, he was not a terrorist not even religious before the arrest. And you didnt shipped his a.s.s to nevada dessert, its more like Cuba.

 

[Joe]

there was one of those "selectively" targeted Al Queda terrorist shipped back to Turkey the other day, he was not a terrorist not even religious before the arrest. And you didnt shipped his a.s.s to nevada dessert, its more like Cuba.

So why doesn't America keep all the Arabs in DC because they are trustworthy but announce deportation and lead all the west coast Arab men, women and children into a desert to essentially die? Meanwhile not condone killings on the way, but just ignore them...

Do you not understand the parallel? Why could the Ottoman Empire to do that to a "threat" and then why doesn't America do it now?

Would you consider it genocide? Even as an American I would...

 

[CapaJr]

So why doesn't America keep all the Arabs in DC because they are trustworthy but announce deportation and lead all the west coast Arab men, women and children into a desert to essentially die? Meanwhile not condone killings on the way, but just ignore them...

Do you not understand the parallel? Why could the Ottoman Empire to do that to a "threat" and then why doesn't America do it now?

Would you consider it genocide? Even as an American I would...

You would, and I would because we are living in a different time.
This is a different world now, the past was nothing like today.
The world is much more "Global" than they were before.

I used to hate Greeks for example, than i had a roommate from Greece and that way i started to see things more differently.
Thats because i had that chance. This time period gave me that chance.
The time period we are debating about was different, it didnt offered the same advantages and view points.

 

[Joe]

Then why can't I call that same situation, which occurred 100 years ago, just with different ethnic groups and a different country, a genocide too?

We didn't have the word or definition at the time, but now we do.

 

[CapaJr]

Then why can't I call that same situation, which occurred 100 years ago, just with different ethnic groups and a different country, a genocide too?

We didn't have the word or definition at the time, but now we do.

You can call it whatever you can. But Turkish Republic shouldnt be involved with it, because the republic itself wasnt even formed 100 years ago.

 

[Joe]

Then why is Turkey getting mad about it? I thought we were just labeling the acts genocide not blaming any country...

 

[CapaJr]

Then why is Turkey getting mad about it? I thought we were just labeling the acts genocide not blaming any country...

Thank you for asking me that important question.
Well my friend, because the International community thinks Turkey should recognize this so-called massacre if we want to speed-up our EU membership progress.

 

[Joe]

And why can't they recognize with the clause: "We recognize these acts done by the Ottoman Empire as genocide." There, case closed. I'd settle for that.

 

[CapaJr]

And why can't they recognize with the clause: "We recognize these acts done by the Ottoman Empire as genocide." There, case closed. I'd settle for that.

I could have been sympatized to that, but then the whole debate about the definition of a genocide still remains to be unsolved.
Remember the Armenians at Istanbul?

Also i want to mention one more important fact.
Bringing this issue to senate and causing a conflict between two strategical allies is nothing but poor politics.
USA is losing their allies one by one and this is something that every American citizen should be concerned of, not the Armenian issue.

 

[Joe]

That's what I touched on in the hypothetical American example. The Armenians at Istanbul would be like our Arabs in Washington DC, that for some reason, we decide we'll let them stay...you don't have to destroy a whole group for it to be genocide...I mean, hell even Hitler saved a few Jews due to their previous good works for him (e.g. the doctor who took care of his mother). I'd still say America was committing genocide with the Arabs we'd be killing in the west (in the example) even if it wasn't the entire population.

 

[rhizome17]

Thank you for asking me that important question.
Well my friend, because the International community thinks Turkey should recognize this so-called massacre if we want to speed-up our EU membership progress.

Bull****. Recognizing the genocide is not a precondition of joining the EU.