Victory for Hamas

[Sir Calumn]

I have to say I agree with Virgo on this one. I have no great liking for Israel (I agree with lots of what the president of Iran says), but there is no way a country in a situation such as Palestinia can be run by a group like this who are, whether just or not, terrorists, without terrible consequences.

If Hamas have reduced their terrorist activity recently, it is because Israel have become more adept at countering it, and because many of their more radical members (in terms of actions, not beliefs) have been imprisoned, not through any change in opinion or mentality. I do not believe in "democracy only when it suits us" and I do not automatically label groups as "terrorists" just because George Bush says they are, but I can have no sympathy or empathy with Hamas and I can feel nothing but trepidation and worry at their election.

And as to them being unable to mount an assault on Israel, now that they are "in power" (though not necessarily in control as the riots have proved), the situation has changed entirely and it is impossible for us to predict the consequences, except for the fact they are likely to be liberally dashed with the old terrorist ways.

 

[Vagegast]

If Hamas have reduced their terrorist activity recently, it is because Israel have become more adept at countering it, and because many of their more radical members (in terms of actions, not beliefs) have been imprisoned, not through any change in opinion or mentality.

Okay, that's what I said.

Let's take out some stats, shall we, courtesy of the Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

2002 there were 60 suicide attacks, while in 2003 this number decreased by more than 50% to 26 suicide attacks. There was also a considerable decrease in the number of fatalities: from 452 killed in 2002 to 214 killed in 2003. In 2004 this number decreased further and up to September 97 people had been killed.

And according to the BBC, there were only 5 suicide attacks in 2005.

Are you still claiming that there hasn't been a decrease in attacks on Israel? If so, please kill yourself.

 

[Virgo]

And as to them being unable to mount an assault on Israel, now that they are "in power" (though not necessarily in control as the riots have proved), the situation has changed entirely and it is impossible for us to predict the consequences, except for the fact they are likely to be liberally dashed with the old terrorist ways.

Hamas has been an organization strictly linked to the terrorism, wether Fatah is known to be a political organization although it is connected to the Al-aqsa brigades to do their dirty jobs for them, so they pass the image of a more moderate faction, and in fact you don't see their leaders calling for the destruction of all Israel, as you could see the Hamas leaders till a year ago.

Even if pratically the difference in leadership may be slim to none, international politics is more about the image that goes onto the public than anything else.
And therefore it will be indeed much easier for Israel to rebuff any peace talks using the argument that the people in charge of the palestinian authority are murderers and terrorists that aren't interested in peace.

Also in Israel, following Sharon's state and the lack of another leading voice in his absence, this may also cause a new shift to the fundamentalist right wing in the upcoming elections, which would pretty much put the peace process back to the start. And I bet my arse off the fundamentalist conservatives will use it in the campaign.


By the way saying that Hamas have reduced their terrorist activity recently, because Israel have become more adept at countering it's a very premature thing to say because as you can read in the article below, the Israeli internal security agency Shin Bet is the first to acknowledge that and quoting "The main reason for the decline, Shin Bet said, was the informal truce observed by some Palestinian groups."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4574720.stm

 

[Virgo]

Are you still claiming that there hasn't been a decrease in attacks on Israel? If so, please kill yourself.

no man, you said this:

What? When's the last time a suicide bombing inside Israel has been mentioned on the news? Do you pay any attention to Palestinian politics?

and you got owned there because I clearly remembered hearing about one this week.

I also never said they haven't decreased, it was you who said:

Except Israel has succesfully stopped Hamas from executing suicide-bombings inside Israel.

which is not true.

no need to kill myself okay? Don't take it personally.

 

[Moron]

I find it funny that we obsess/worship democracy yet when democracy actually happens and the people's voices are heard, we immediately vow to "put pressure" on the palestinians and threaten them with isolation. hahhaha


LONG LIVE HAMAS!

 

[Joe Star]

I cant wait for Knight to get involved.......though he's rather scarce these days

 

[Rob]

I find it funny that we obsess/worship democracy yet when democracy actually happens and the people's voices are heard, we immediately vow to "put pressure" on the palestinians and threaten them with isolation. hahhaha


LONG LIVE HAMAS!

Yea, this coming from a man who said Stalin was right to put people in Gulags

 

[Moron]

Yea, this coming from a man who said Stalin was right to put people in Gulags

yep

 

[Rob]

Shows how much of a nob you are.

 

[Awax]

I was worried that they were going to be strong seconds, but I never even entertained the possibility that they could win, let alone so totally.

It's a very worrying prospect, first the end of Sharon, who was atleast trying to make steps towards peace, and now this. Expect the situation to get alot more turbulent.

Oh, wow :funny:

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[The_Knight]

...first the end of Sharon, who was atleast trying to make steps towards peace, and ....

That was also where I stopped reading

 

[Virgo]

That was also where I stopped reading

well Knight, Sharon is a war criminal and the main responsible for the intifada that started in 2000, but it's undeniable that he has been changing towards a more moderate view of the conflict, especially when compared to the other members of his former party, the Likud. Remember the jew settlements at palestinian territory wouldn't have been dismantled if it wasn't for him.

 

[The_Knight]

And that (settlement dismantling) is probably the most plus point in a human's record, in the history of mankind to get the biggest media attention ever. In a history as dark as his.

Trying to compensate. makes sense.

Whatever. The man is currently dying. I won't be flaming him.

 

[Moron]

Shows how much of a nob you are.

And you're more of a nob than me, you George Bush wannabe .

 

[Virgo]

And that (settlement dismantling) is probably the most plus point in a human's record, in the history of mankind to get the biggest media attention ever. In a history as dark as his.

Trying to compensate. makes sense.

Whatever. The man is currently dying. I won't be flaming him.

it's one of some steps forward from a guy who spent his whole life taking steps behind.

Would you rather have the religious driven and ultra conservative faction of the Likud in control? I'd go for Sharon...

of course someone like Shimon Peres would be a much more moderate and peace friendly option and I bet he was the guy pulling the strings behind Sharon's sudden shift towards peace, but I cant see that happening soon.

 

[yoyo913]

And you're more of a nob than me, you George Bush wannabe .

Morowned

:fool:

 

[Rob]

And you're more of a nob than me, you George Bush wannabe .

Explain how I am a George Bush wannabe? And Explain why anyone would even want to be a George Bush wannabe?

Oh and Horatiu, youre Romanian and because you arent Steaua you suck and your opinion does not matter

 

[Sir Calumn]

Hamas has been an organization strictly linked to the terrorism, wether Fatah is known to be a political organization although it is connected to the Al-aqsa brigades to do their dirty jobs for them, so they pass the image of a more moderate faction, and in fact you don't see their leaders calling for the destruction of all Israel, as you could see the Hamas leaders till a year ago.

Even if pratically the difference in leadership may be slim to none, international politics is more about the image that goes onto the public than anything else.
And therefore it will be indeed much easier for Israel to rebuff any peace talks using the argument that the people in charge of the palestinian authority are murderers and terrorists that aren't interested in peace.

Also in Israel, following Sharon's state and the lack of another leading voice in his absence, this may also cause a new shift to the fundamentalist right wing in the upcoming elections, which would pretty much put the peace process back to the start. And I bet my arse off the fundamentalist conservatives will use it in the campaign.

Exactly my point, and why I said that about Sharon. Hamas will always be a power in the confict, and will never be tethered by the government no matter who it is, but the fact that they are the government means that there is literally no-one with whom seemingly legitiment negotiations can take place. The Fatah party were not exactly clean, though I wouldnt go as far as to brand them terrorists, but due to the legitimate front they maintained, it made negotiations and diplomacy stomachable to the people of all interested parties. Some would argue that things will be more open now that we know exactly who we're dealing with (except now we dont in terms of the Israelis) but I would say this is a bad thing as this is one area of international politics were we need the chirade (sp??) of legitimacy.

By the way saying that Hamas have reduced their terrorist activity recently, because Israel have become more adept at countering it's a very premature thing to say because as you can read in the article below, the Israeli internal security agency Shin Bet is the first to acknowledge that and quoting "The main reason for the decline, Shin Bet said, was the informal truce observed by some Palestinian groups."

OK, I must bow to your superior knowledge of this area as it is not something I know a particularly large amout about, but it still remains that the decline in terrorist activity is not a reformation of ideals, which was the point I was trying to make.

 

[Sir Calumn]

That was also where I stopped reading

Just to try and justify my comment, I was not saying that I believe Sharon was a good man or a good leader (though I would argue he was a very strong leader) but he was atleast prepared to entertain and work towards the notion of peace, again not out of any personal remorse or charity but because he believed, rightly, that it was the most sensible option politically. Hamas, as of yet, appear to believe no such thing, atleast publicly.

 

[Run DMB]

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=87439&ak=null