The Arsenal Thread [2005/06]

[TheBlueBalla]

What Jose has in mind is to cripple his opponents by signing their key targets. I'm pretty sure SWP will get his fair share of playing time, but with Duff and Robben already there, where else would SWP play at? I can see him being subbed in late, but it isn't as if SWP is going to play defensive midfield.

You're right, SWP is a good player but he's not great yet. He needs to play everyday to further his career like you said. I don't know if Chelsea is the team for him to further his career. Win trophies, possibly so, but maybe not developing his talents...

I think youre figuring Jose to be more malicious when assembling a team than most: I doubt if there are any big managers that make signings with an eye toward crippling an opponent. If the pieces dont fit the puzzle, the whole thing could be for naught, and of all people Jose knows this.

About the development of talent issue, I have to submit the case of Joe Cole. People thought his days were numbered at Chelsea even before the end of last year. Then when Jose came in, he was a off again on again sub who couldnt seem to impress despite all his talent. Then when he started scoring, Jose praised but also pushed him publicly, as well as, I can only assume, privately. The result was that he applied himself much more readily and rose to the occasion.

If SWP, Duff, and Robben are the three wingers, and Cole is put back in the center of park again, then the rotation can be easily set up so that they each sit every 3rd game out, and hopefully the team wont get burnt out even in 4 competitions.

One goal justifies 20 million quid on a player?

Clearly not, but you understand the meaning behind his words: someone with that kind of talent. By the same token, you could see a clip of Rooney's strike against Newcastle and take it, appropriately so, as an indication of his talent level and thus, his valuation.

I've been thinking about our chances to win the title and generally about Chelsea as a whole. Now...

I like posting long posts.

I didnt want to quote everything, but I just had a few comments about your analysis. In your bit about where the points will come from, I think your sleeping and bit on ManYoo and Liverpool. Im confident that those two teams will both be responsible for stealing points off both Arsenal and Chelsea next season. On top of that (dont laugh) Newcastle, Boro, and Spurs will all be better to varying degrees and we saw how a team like City can surprise a top side.

The thing about Jose, though, you must realize is England's effect on him. He is a very astute man, and his complaining about Dein is all part of the game that, as a the mananger of a top level side in England, he must play between Fergie and Wenger. Let me use perhaps the most famous example: Im sure Fergie didnt believe in 96 that opponents like Leeds were actually playing harder against his team than a side like Newcastle, but he said it anyway, and it had the desired effect. That reaction was a visible explosion on television, but claims like this one of crooked dealings with the FA are simply meant to unsettle your team and foster the "us against the world" attitude he sows in the team. Colegate was much the same way: I dont think he was really that enthused about signing cole, but there was an opportunity to cause a major fracas and he took it, irrespective of the consequences. Dont get me wrong though: I think that was over the line.

Edit: its like Drvar said: a bit of psycology

The bit you mention about the players, though, I remember people like LFC_Ciara from OTL talking about how she hissed and jeered at Terry and the rest of Chelsea becuase of their supposed arrogance, when the only person id seen step out of line all year was Drogba, so its good to see most people do believe them respectful because almost all of them are. But there again is the brilliance of Jose. He goes and says something riddiculous, and all the mics are in his face, not in JT's, not in Eidurs, etc etc. Thats just another thing I love about him.

 

[JayNiner]

About the development of talent issue, I have to submit the case of Joe Cole. People thought his days were numbered at Chelsea even before the end of last year. Then when Jose came in, he was a off again on again sub who couldnt seem to impress despite all his talent. Then when he started scoring, Jose praised but also pushed him publicly, as well as, I can only assume, privately. The result was that he applied himself much more readily and rose to the occasion.

If SWP, Duff, and Robben are the three wingers, and Cole is put back in the center of park again, then the rotation can be easily set up so that they each sit every 3rd game out, and hopefully the team wont get burnt out even in 4 competitions.


Clearly not, but you understand the meaning behind his words: someone with that kind of talent. By the same token, you could see a clip of Rooney's strike against Newcastle and take it, appropriately so, as an indication of his talent level and thus, his valuation.

Absolutely, although when you're talking about 20 million on one player alone, you have to verify why he's worth it besides one goal. But point taken.

However, you really think 20 million was worth it for SWP, a guy who won't be an everyday type of player? Not only that, but does SWP know he won't play as much as he did with his former team. That's why I compared this situation with Scott Parker, a man with potential who couldn't crack into the starting lineup for the Blues. I see your comment on Joe Cole, but quite honestly, did Parker get as many opportunities as Cole? I obviously don't watch as many Blues games as you. However, from the games I've seen, it seemed as if Cole received more playing time opportunities, even during the start of the season.

Man City is ~62 Million under debt, so you have to wonder if they inflated the value of SWP. Don't get me wrong, SWP is a good player and he would have been a good addition to the Gunners, but as an Arsenal supporter I don't know if spending that much is worth it for SWP. All this talk of Baptiste going for around 14 million is a bit too much for me as well, and if it hadn't been for the sale of Vieira I wouldn't even think about Baptiste coming to Arsenal for that much.

All of this can be reasoned with the teams' two different philosophies. Jose and Roman obviously have the funds to go out and get big time players. It has pretty much been Arsene's way of getting players for the cheap and many times getting them when they're quite young. Whoever heard of Vieira, Henry, Ljunberg, etc before they came to North London? Arsene has a way of finding young players and grooming them for bigger and better things. I trust Arsene in what he's doing as you trust in the good decision making Jose and Roman have done in bringing in the type of players your team possesses now.

 

[pede54]

but Chelsea do not just buy established players.These are only the players that you hear about.Chelsea are buying or bringing in many young kids too.Our youth academy is filling up fast,with good young talent from England and elsewhere.These guys wont hit the first squad for years yet(if at all).Our long term strategy is to build a home grown squad for the future,and to that end our revitalised youth system is looking very healthy.At the moment,and as long as Roman is around,we will pay whatever it takes,within reason,to get who we want.This will not be the case forever though,but until the time Chelsea become self supporting,and our youth come through,this will continue.Also our profile needed to be raised to attract a better class of young player,and this has also been achieved.Radical changes were badly needed at Chelsea.The Academy had been run into the ground with very little investment for years.Also with the club on the verge of bankrupcy,Roman bought with him the perfect solution.A very quick and aggressive rebirth.We recovered almost instantly thanks to him and his dosh.Sure,many ppl don't like it.They would have preferred to see chelsea go to the wall and spend the next 10 to 15 years trying to lift themselves back up.Personally i would not wish that fate on any club,including Arsenal,however much i might dislike the club, because its a sad day for everyone concerned with the club when this happens,not least of all the supporters,and to be honest,i do not dislike any other set of fans enough to get any pleasure in watching them suffer that kind of fate.Others probably think differently and thats their choice.Maybe,just maybe,we will become a very successful club in the future.A club that can pay its own way without the need of a benefactor.I look forward to that because then i think the playing field will level itself out once more...............

 

[TheBlueBalla]

Absolutely, although when you're talking about 20 million on one player alone, you have to verify why he's worth it besides one goal. But point taken.

Wright-Phillips' reputation isnt merely based on one goal. Everyone has seen this kid's explosiveness and potential, and despite his diminutive size, he proved to be a physical handful for many teams this year. Add to that his versatility, and his potential, and you see why that fee was inflated, but not far off.

However, you really think 20 million was worth it for SWP, a guy who won't be an everyday type of player? Not only that, but does SWP know he won't play as much as he did with his former team. That's why I compared this situation with Scott Parker, a man with potential who couldn't crack into the starting lineup for the Blues. I see your comment on Joe Cole, but quite honestly, did Parker get as many opportunities as Cole? I obviously don't watch as many Blues games as you. However, from the games I've seen, it seemed as if Cole received more playing time opportunities, even during the start of the season.

Firstly, SWP will be as much of an everyday player as Robben and Duffa are. Thats what I was getting at with the rotation thing. And im quite sure he realizes it will be tough to get games at Chelsea, where he is fighting just for a start, than Man City, where he was the starlet. When they were agreeing to personal terms, Jose spoke to him personally, and im sure he said something along the lines of "if you play better than one of our two wingers, you will get games" or something to that effect. All this nonsense about him being a 21 million pound sub is media crap.

Secondly, Scott Parker's case was completely mishandled, but not becuase of playing time. He was brilliant for the team last year, in a squad whose midfield boasted Cole, Veron, Geremi, Lampard, Maka, etc. When this year rolled around, and Tiago came in Parker sat on the bench but was still getting games. Then he injured himself and he was essentially gone for the year. When the summer came around, it was made clear to Scott that he could sit as Maka's understudy for a season or two more and the get the holding role, or he could move on. He moved on, and I still think it was a mistake. So while Parker didnt get as many chances Joe (who, mind you, switched positions to fill the teams needs) he couldnt, and rather than try again next year, he left, which sucks.

Man City is ~62 Million under debt, so you have to wonder if they inflated the value of SWP. Don't get me wrong, SWP is a good player and he would have been a good addition to the Gunners, but as an Arsenal supporter I don't know if spending that much is worth it for SWP. All this talk of Baptiste going for around 14 million is a bit too much for me as well, and if it hadn't been for the sale of Vieira I wouldn't even think about Baptiste coming to Arsenal for that much.

Any team on earth, except Chelsea apparrently, seek to inflate a player's value in their attempt to sell them. And 21 million for SWP to Arsenal would have been bad business. As Chelsea wanted him, as can spend whatever (as well as get charged whatever, if you ask Aulas) he was bound to cost that much.

All of this can be reasoned with the teams' two different philosophies. Jose and Roman obviously have the funds to go out and get big time players. It has pretty much been Arsene's way of getting players for the cheap and many times getting them when they're quite young. Whoever heard of Vieira, Henry, Ljunberg, etc before they came to North London? Arsene has a way of finding young players and grooming them for bigger and better things. I trust Arsene in what he's doing as you trust in the good decision making Jose and Roman have done in bringing in the type of players your team possesses now.

Granted, and that is Arsenal's style. But to be frank about it, Roman has very little hand in what players are brought in: to my knowledge, he is a keen student of football but he just cuts the checks. Furthermore, I dont trust Jose implicitly in the transfer market as far as big names are concerned: I think, peronsally, that he has botched the Drogba transfer, Mutu case, Parker and Forssell departures, as well as getting the Serbian who dare not speak his name.



And Pete, thats a great point: Everyone whines about how Chelsea are ruining football now, but they were all rubbing their hands with glee at getting Terry, Gallas, etc on the cheap before Roman came along. They didnt give two sh!ts that the club was potentially going to implode and go belly up, but that sentiment is just plain wrong. I felt miserable for Leeds fans after their club hit the wall, and they were the scum of the earth. But for the time that Roman is here, the boot is gonna be on the other foot: Surely you gooners can handle it for, oh, say a decade or two

 

[proxnet]

we shall see about the standings in the league this season, then we'll see that money isn't everything.


oh and pete....hadn't u said before that u were gonna leave this thread and stop 'spamming' here??

 

[pede54]

Proxnet ol' mate....thats not spamming......that was a calm, incisive and informative post.......the kind of post that all great debates are made of.......

 

[henry#14]

Haha, and still Arsenal have to beat Man U in the league, which hasn't happened for a couple of years now.

Come on, I know you know better than that. The league is won through beating the "smaller" clubs rather than the bigger ones.

 

[enigma]

Haha, and still Arsenal have to beat Man U in the league, which hasn't happened for a couple of years now.

Oh yes and it has effected our seasons greatly! *cough*

 

[ladylover]

Baptista is staying....

http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=292758&CPID=8&CLID=&lid=2&title=Baptista:+I'm+staying+put&channel=football_home

 

[JayNiner]

Firstly, SWP will be as much of an everyday player as Robben and Duffa are. Thats what I was getting at with the rotation thing. And im quite sure he realizes it will be tough to get games at Chelsea, where he is fighting just for a start, than Man City, where he was the starlet. When they were agreeing to personal terms, Jose spoke to him personally, and im sure he said something along the lines of "if you play better than one of our two wingers, you will get games" or something to that effect. All this nonsense about him being a 21 million pound sub is media crap.


You sure about the everyday player part? McMahon of foxsportsworld just said that it's questionable whether or not SWP will be an everyday player. With Cole, Duff, Robben, and now SWP, he doesn't see more than two of them on the pitch on the same time. Granted, he could be subbed in every game or maybe even start in every game. But frankly, we'll see. I kinda agree with McMahon considering you guys already have Makelele and Lampard in the middle with those two demanding every single minute on the pitch.




Any team on earth, except Chelsea apparrently, seek to inflate a player's value in their attempt to sell them. And 21 million for SWP to Arsenal would have been bad business. As Chelsea wanted him, as can spend whatever (as well as get charged whatever, if you ask Aulas) he was bound to cost that much.

He was bound to cost that much partly due to Man City's financial situation. Let's face it, his 21 M asking price was too much for Arsenal to compete, and not for the Blues. He was bound to cost that much to your team considering Man City knew Chelsea was highly interested in acquiring SWP. He could have gone for more had it not been for SWP pressuring his former team to let him go over the weekend. However, SWP will make a pretty good addition to the Blues.

Good discussion. And yes, the Gooners will be able to withstand anything your team or the Manc's dish out for as long as it takes...

 

[proxnet]

Proxnet ol' mate....thats not spamming......that was a calm, incisive and informative post.......the kind of post that all great debates are made of.......

lol i was kiddin m8

anyways to get back to the topic

IS THE THE SOLUTION FOR CLOSING THE VOID???

 

[TheBlueBalla]

You sure about the everyday player part? McMahon of foxsportsworld just said that it's questionable whether or not SWP will be an everyday player. With Cole, Duff, Robben, and now SWP, he doesn't see more than two of them on the pitch on the same time. Granted, he could be subbed in every game or maybe even start in every game. But frankly, we'll see. I kinda agree with McMahon considering you guys already have Makelele and Lampard in the middle with those two demanding every single minute on the pitch.

He was bound to cost that much partly due to Man City's financial situation. Let's face it, his 21 M asking price was too much for Arsenal to compete, and not for the Blues. He was bound to cost that much to your team considering Man City knew Chelsea was highly interested in acquiring SWP. He could have gone for more had it not been for SWP pressuring his former team to let him go over the weekend. However, SWP will make a pretty good addition to the Blues.

Good discussion. And yes, the Gooners will be able to withstand anything your team or the Manc's dish out for as long as it takes...

Look, to be perfectly frank this "McMahon" dude may know his soccer, but I wouldnt assume he has the faintest clue about what is going to Chelsea's situation next year. But if they dont buy Essien, you will see Joe Cole playing in the middle of park, and thats just a given. Makalele and Lampard really have no bearing on the minutes going on at winger, as their spots are literally cemented in the side every week, as you alluded to. Between 2 spots, you can understand why I'm not worried about all three wingers getting playing time. Everyone goes on and off form, and this way they will be even sharper, im sure.

Also, Houston had an intresting tidbit from a Hong Kong newspaper which revealed that Chelsea will alternate between
---------Maka---------
---Tiago-----Lampard--
-Duff--Crespo--Robben-

and

---------Maka---------
--SWP--Lamps---Cole--
------Eidur--Drogba----

Between the league, CL, and cup competitions. Definately makes sense (Drogba partnered, Cole playing in his position for England, Crespo only lone man) and gives food for thought.


And yah, SWP was gonna cost that much, but considering practically everyone had Joaquin at Chelsea at the start of the summer, they could have played that card a little heavier to lower the price. But oh well. Good discussion indeed mate.

Come on, I know you know better than that. The league is won through beating the "smaller" clubs rather than the bigger ones.

Yes, mancs know that very well. But in a leauge where its taken for granted the Arsenals and Chelseas of the world literally run over teams in the bottom half of the table, titles are now decided by the ability to win the bigger games

Take the "big 4" last year
Liverpool gained 3 points off ManU, Arsenal and Chelsea...and they struggled against the minnows
ManU gained, amazingly enough 12 points off the other three but of course they too struggled against smaller teams
Arsenal took 5 points off the other three
and Chelsea won 14 points off the other three.

So clearly, that could easily be the difference.

 

[foss]

WTF? there are more posts by chelsea fans about chelsea here than about arsenal by gooners.. if i wanted to read about ******* crap chelsea, i'd go to the chelsea thread. i dont give a **** about chelsea or what their formations are going to be.

 

[TheBlueBalla]

WTF? there are more posts by chelsea fans about chelsea here than about arsenal by gooners.. if i wanted to read about ******* crap chelsea, i'd go to the chelsea thread. i dont give a **** about chelsea or what their formations are going to be.

And just who the f*ck are you? People here are having a responsible debate and dont need you f*cking around with it, you nobody. And In case your reading comprehension has failed you yet again, I made reference to Arsenal in that post.

By the way, sweet avatar. (LOL ROLLS EYES)

 

[Dreath]

Not Guti!

Ahh he's bollocks. He moans a lot to hte press plus he will NOT handle the physical side of the premiership.

A famous commentator (can't remember the name) said this in the 2002 Super Cup- "Real Madrid are amazing, there's 10 world class players out there...and Guti"

 

[Becks is God]

Were gettin Guti

 

[ogsimon]

**** off puti u ******* ****

 

[Bummy_JaB]

Guti is not the answer!!!!! how dissappointing it will be if he is to become a gunner

He can be Fab's backup, seriously Fab is miles ahead of him...


Does anyone have highlights against the friendly game today???? according to the arsenal website it was a CRACKING goal by Henry....

 

[rsnjg]

AW recently said he does not sign 'big' name players, he signs players wanting to make a name for themselves i.e. youngsters & unknowns, for obvious reasons associated with 'big' names, that come in from the outside.

He also hinted in the same interview that it will probably be one of the younger players who fills Paddy's role, saying that 'there is no point in buying young players and prospects if you are not going to let them fulfil there potential'.

Which I agree with. And that is what Vieira was when he came to us, a prospect, and now he is a world class star with 'big' name status. So he wants to let the next prospect (probably Cesc or Flamini) turn in to the 'big' name.

Guti is a 'big' name failing to live up to that status in Madrid being a bit part player. Not only will he cost to much in transfer fee and wages, he is 28 years old and (as mentioned) would be unable to handle the physical nature of the Premireship.

Which is exactly why 'the beast' is the perfect addition to the squad.

 

[henry#14]

Obviously some of you guys have not seen much of Guti in full flow. Granted he's not the world's best, but he's still a really good player to have in the squad. Nobody said he'd have to start every game, but he'd be in rotation with Hleb(assuming he plays in the center) according to form, injury and such. And I don't see how you can say "he won't handle the physical nature of the premiership," I mean he's not Roy Keane but he's had to become way more physical playing as a CM in Real Madrid. He has great passing and allowed to get forward has an eye for goal. Hell not so long ago he took Morientes' place next to Raul because of his goal-scoring exploits. Would everyone forget Baptista already? He's staying in Spain, and is not as fantastic as everyone says. Hell he can't even break into Brazil's NT and he's supposed to be the answer to Arsenal's problems