The anti-holiday thread

[Sir Calumn]

That's good enough for now. I'm a middle class slob with delusions of grandeur.

 

[Bobby]

Because capitalism is the worst economic system with the toll it has on mankind. Capitalism thrives off exploitation and wars; almost all your store-bought presents came about because somebody was killed or worked for near slave labour.

Well, the worst kind if you don't count all the others.

 

[Bobby]

With the exception of Marxism. Capitalism is a very primitive economic system, and the toll it's had on man and her planet earth has been devastating. The world's working class, the proletariat have more in common with each other across the world than they do their rulers. It's the bourgeoisie fighting tooth and nail to preserver their capital. A proletariat revolution is only a matter of time. Call me an optimist, but soon enough, our racist, capitalist, imperialist states will have pushed the envelope too far - what with the erosion of our rights in the name of security, national id cards and rfid tracking chips, scarcity of food on the rise, and the fact that the average American wage is 12% less than it was ~30 years ago when adjusted for inflation. "Your oppression is our revolution".

North Carolina has food, and it's raining again, I'm straight. Not my fault other people f*cked up. I'm a vulture capitalist anyway, I hope they keep messing up, it helps me.

Nobody is stopping you from raising cows if you want to eat, nobody. But you're lazy and want the government to give you meat to eat.

 

[::shinji::]

With the exception of Marxism. Capitalism is a very primitive economic system, and the toll it's had on man and her planet earth has been devastating. The world's working class, the proletariat have more in common with each other across the world than they do their regional rulers. It's the bourgeoisie fighting tooth and nail to preserve their capital. A proletariat revolution is only a matter of time. Call me an optimist, but soon enough, our racist, capitalist, imperialist states will have pushed the envelope too far - what with the erosion of our rights in the name of security, national id cards and rfid tracking chips, scarcity of food on the rise, and the fact that the average American wage is 12% less than it was ~30 years ago when adjusted for inflation. "Your oppression is our revolution".

You should hook up with the OCAP.. I was at one of their "meetings" once and they were too hardcore and angry for me, not my cup of tea. But you're young and full of piss and vinegar, you might be into it..

 

[Bobby]

You missed the point completely. Here's a good resource on the food price inflation, and how the price spikes threaten third world countries.

What have they done for me lately?

 

[Jambo Den]

British impersialism was the best thing to ever happen to Africa. These countries have had 50-60 years of independence and what have they done with it? Most are in a recursive loop of famine and civil war while the rest throw women in jail for naming a teddy bear Mohammed.

Some people aren't capable of running a civilization for themselves. I fully expect the usual racist labels thrown at me, but it's the truth.

 

[::shinji::]

British impersialism was the best thing to ever happen to Africa. These countries have had 50-60 years of independence and what have they done with it? Most are in a recursive loop of famine and civil war while the rest throw women in jail for naming a teddy bear Mohammed.

Some people aren't capable of running a civilization for themselves. I fully expect the usual racist labels thrown at me, but it's the truth.

It's not that simple man, there's reasons for why Africa is in chaos and a lot of that turmoil is a by-product of colonialism. You can't keep people oppressed, ignorant, poor, have religion forced on them, their own culture surpressed, and decide where borders are with no regard for the actual history of the land or traditional divides. Then expect everything to fall into place and continue as it was after Europeans leave, without any kind of power struggle or exploitation..? It was a recipe for disaster from the begining and not much different than what's happened in Europe's history, this is just a lot more recent and seen from a different perspective.

I'm not saying your point of view is racist, and not making excuses for Africa because there has to be a time when you have to take some responsibility and at least contribute to your own better future. There's just a lot of factors that I think get overlooked..

...and trust me, I think that mohammed teddy bear stuff is ridiculous beyond belief too.

 

[King]

It's not that simple man, there's reasons for why Africa is in chaos and a lot of that turmoil is a by-product of colonialism. You can't keep people oppressed, ignorant, poor, have religion forced on them, their own culture surpressed, and decide where borders are with no regard for the actual history of the land or traditional divides. Then expect everything to fall into place and continue as it was after Europeans leave, without any kind of power struggle or exploitation..? It was a recipe for disaster from the begining and not much different than what's happened in Europe's history, this is just a lot more recent and seen from a different perspective.

I'm not saying your point of view is racist, and not making excuses for Africa because there has to be a time when you have to take some responsibility and at least contribute to your own better future. There's just a lot of factors that I think get overlooked..

...and trust me, I think that mohammed teddy bear stuff is ridiculous beyond belief too.

I totally agree with you but the thing is that most countries got over it. Africa didn't do a **** for themselves but fight with each other for power all this years and kill their own people.

 

[::shinji::]

I totally agree with you but the thing is that most countries got over it. Africa didn't do a **** for themselves but fight with each other for power all this years and kill their own people.

OK, but again that's incredibly short sighted.. do you think Europe became the way it is today overnight? It took centuries, and you expect Africa to do a complete economic/social 180 in 50 years? My dad was in the army in Angola fighting against Africans and even he says blacks were treated like sh!t there in those days and doesn't blame them for trying to kill whites and get their land back (not that it's what should be done, but the situation there created that violent environment). Problem is, too many different people had their own ideas as to what to do with the land once they had it, hence civil war.

This isn't directed at you in particular King but, it's a myth that Africa was somehow a paradise while under British/Euro rule... Maybe it was for some of the Europeans that profited from the resources and cheap labour there, was never so great for the Africans. Unless ofcourse they were lackeys, and there were/are plenty of those.

...and not to mention many European countries gained and continue to gain wealth and prosperity by exploiting countries in places like Africa. Being Indian you should know this more than anyone. In the case of North America, they did the Europeans one better, they exploited themselves AND other countries.

anyways, I don't know how I still get suckered into these types conversations on SG

EDITED - these are just my opinions, don't mean to be preachy. *backs away slowly*

 

[King]

OK, but again that's incredibly short sighted.. do you think Europe became the way it is today overnight? It took centuries, and you expect Africa to do a complete economic/social 180 in 50 years?

This isn't directed at you in particular King but, it's a myth that Africa was somehow a paradise while under British/Euro rule... Maybe it was for some of the Europeans that profited from the resources and cheap labour there, was never so great for the Africans. Unless ofcourse they were lackeys, and there were/are plenty of those.

...and not to mention many European countries gained and continue to gain wealth and prosperity by exploiting countries in places like Africa. Being Indian you should know this more than anyone. In the case of North America, they did the Europeans one better, they exploited themselves AND other countries.

anyways, I don't know how I still get suckered into these types conversations on SG

I totally agree with you on the part that it took 180 years for Europe to prosper and I don't expect Africa to do the same in 50 years also I totally agree with you that Africa was never a paradise under the British rule.......it was a hell and still is a hell because many of the countries are still exploiting it. What I am saying is that if they don't take control of themselves and if they don't come with some sort of policy to unite plus something that will restrict this foreign governments to exploit them, I think they will become extinct in the next 130 years instead of becoming a prosperous nation. I am blaming all this on their leaders which are fully corrupted and they only care for themselves. India was in the same situation when it was divided into India/Pakistan and many states wanted to form there own countries. There were riots/killing all over the sub continent due to race/religion and China on the other side was threatening to go on war plus we were already on war with Pakistan due to Kashmir. India was held together because of its leaders and now I don't even need to explain how good India is in terms of economy/stability.Also, India had closed economy till around 1990-95, while it was building its labor force, so it could prevent exploitation from foreign countries. So what I am saying is that Africa still can prosper if they get the right leaders. There is still some hope for them to overcome all this years of exploitation and at least become like Bangladesh!

I usually don't write more than 2 lines on forums but damn....

 

[::shinji::]

I hear what you're sayin' man..

 

[TimmyP]

The reason Africa is really buggered up is because many of the colonys we decolonised we gave very little help at all, and many came coming back asking for help, but we didnt on much.

One country we did carry on helping, believe it or not was Zimbabue! And for awhile Mugabue was doing a great job and was actully very good friends with the Queen! But things went a bit wrong on Zimbabue's side, and cut off British help, and the power without Britains grip has gone to Mugabe's head, thus him thinking he is an all great power.

This really supports decolonisation, but i also think we should have done a lot more help to these former colonies. Some have done well for themselves, but many have become corrupt without British help(well, without British advice), and thus the ret is obvious

I'm not saying British people are almighty in any means, but it is my view that the British are partly to blame, but again, a lot of it is their own darn fault too!

 

[Jambo Den]

It's not that simple man, there's reasons for why Africa is in chaos and a lot of that turmoil is a by-product of colonialism. You can't keep people oppressed, ignorant, poor, have religion forced on them, their own culture surpressed, and decide where borders are with no regard for the actual history of the land or traditional divides. Then expect everything to fall into place and continue as it was after Europeans leave, without any kind of power struggle or exploitation..? It was a recipe for disaster from the begining and not much different than what's happened in Europe's history, this is just a lot more recent and seen from a different perspective.

I'm not saying your point of view is racist, and not making excuses for Africa because there has to be a time when you have to take some responsibility and at least contribute to your own better future. There's just a lot of factors that I think get overlooked..

...and trust me, I think that mohammed teddy bear stuff is ridiculous beyond belief too.

I suppose the empires shouldn't have upped sticks like they did, but it is frustrating to see all the same. You see all these aid packages and the amazing amount of resources so many African countries have and you think to yourself "Man, with a little investment in infrastructure and good leadership Africa could be doing great!", but neither ever seems to come. I have an Angolan friend and some of the horrible stories he tells me about the civil war there and the kajillions of squandered chances for a better future. It's awful to hear... then you see a totally side of life, jingando music for instance :Carlos*o:

Regarding uneducated peasants with a supressed culture, the same could be said of Ireland

 

[Rob]

Because capitalism is the worst economic system with the toll it has on mankind. Capitalism thrives off exploitation and wars; almost all your store-bought presents came about because somebody was killed or worked for near slave labour.

What a load of crap.

You people think Capitalism is to blame for all the problems of the world. You all fail to recognise that without economic freedom you cannot have social and political freedom, as a general rule of thumb. What has been the best thing for the people of China? What has seen them slowly achieve some social gains? Oh yeah, opening up their markets.

Get a map of the world, and look at nations with the most economic freedom, then apply a map of nations with the most political and social freedom, I bet it is almost exactly the same.

Freedom is not the natural state of man, freedom is unique and precious. The state we live in today world wide is historic and unique. Never before have so many people been free, and it is no coincidence that this has occurred during the reign of capitalism.

But what a horrible thing, free men pursing their own interests, and doing so through voluntary co-operation on any matter what so ever, and it being beneficial for both parties in some way shape or form.

And ultimately, this is what capitalism boils down to. Incentives. People operate on incentives, they don't do things for any other reason. And evidently, this system works. All nations who have adopted capitalism and the free market, and who are shying away from protectionism, from government interference, on average live much better than other countries. And this all boils down to the individual, giving them property rights, giving them incentives to make their land more productive in terms of growing food. If this incentive never existed, the United States would still be an agriculturally based economy, because free willed individuals would have no incentive to find new ways of producing food. But now, the 2% of the United States can produce enough food, to feed the rest of the country.

This frees people from the land, and moves them into other areas and the country as a whole benefits. And this is how cheap labor overseas works. First of all, nations need to grant their citizens property rights, half the ******* reason why Africa is so poor. What incentive is their for a farmer in Kenya, to add a mill to his farm? To invest his own money to produce more food to sell at the market rate, to re-invest, etc? NONE. But when that incentive exists, people are freed from the land, and the next thing a country has to offer is cheap labor.

You cannot justify paying Western style rages to cheap labor overseas, if they do not have the same skill set. This is fair however, because with time, this cheap labor and the demand for it will be the very thing that increases their real wage. It happened in Taiwan, South Korea and is happening right now in Thailand, Vietnam, etc. Look at Taiwans, South Koreas average income per captia, and look at Vietnams, where it has risen 7 times in the last 2 decades, after being destroyed by war. This in itself proves that nations are not destined for exploitation. Again, how can it be exploitation? It is the free market at operation. Two parties are entering into a transaction that would not occur if it didn't benefit both parties. Both parties voluntarily enter into it, and they are not coerced. What a horrible thing that two parties can both benefit from something!

It is a necessary part of an economies development, because while parents now have a guaranteed income source to purchase food, while earning wages way above the average in their home countries, their children aren't slaves to the land and goto school and gather an education which will increase their productivity as adults, and the nation will benefit from it on the whole, but most importantly, so will the children as individuals. And why? Why do they do this, because the incentive exists.

The market will decide what the ideal wage is. But you think that overseas countries are destined to this kind of cheap labor, but it is completely untrue. It is a necessary part for a nations development.

Look at Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam for example. Taiwan and South Korea are examples of nations where, at first they supplied cheap labor.

Such a hard toil on mankind.

Lifting nations out of poverty when they adopt full market principles, and being a natural pre-requisite for social and political freedom. And being a wonderful safeguard on tyranny, although not perfect, it disperses centralised power.

As far as I am concerned, the free market is the most democratic institute we as humans have. When we vote for our governments, its once every 3, 4 years. But in the market! We vote every day with our dollars! Competition! Love it!

I challenge anyone who says capitalism is the worst system ever, to name a better system and explain why.

 

[Tom]

Simon, without capitalism, you wouldn't be using the computer you're using now. Nor the food, nor living in that house of yours.

 

[King]

What a load of crap.

You people think Capitalism is to blame for all the problems of the world. You all fail to recognise that without economic freedom you cannot have social and political freedom, as a general rule of thumb. What has been the best thing for the people of China? What has seen them slowly achieve some social gains? Oh yeah, opening up their markets.

Get a map of the world, and look at nations with the most economic freedom, then apply a map of nations with the most political and social freedom, I bet it is almost exactly the same.

Freedom is not the natural state of man, freedom is unique and precious. The state we live in today world wide is historic and unique. Never before have so many people been free, and it is no coincidence that this has occurred during the reign of capitalism.

But what a horrible thing, free men pursing their own interests, and doing so through voluntary co-operation on any matter what so ever, and it being beneficial for both parties in some way shape or form.

And ultimately, this is what capitalism boils down to. Incentives. People operate on incentives, they don't do things for any other reason. And evidently, this system works. All nations who have adopted capitalism and the free market, and who are shying away from protectionism, from government interference, on average live much better than other countries. And this all boils down to the individual, giving them property rights, giving them incentives to make their land more productive in terms of growing food. If this incentive never existed, the United States would still be an agriculturally based economy, because free willed individuals would have no incentive to find new ways of producing food. But now, the 2% of the United States can produce enough food, to feed the rest of the country.

This frees people from the land, and moves them into other areas and the country as a whole benefits. And this is how cheap labor overseas works. First of all, nations need to grant their citizens property rights, half the ******* reason why Africa is so poor. What incentive is their for a farmer in Kenya, to add a mill to his farm? To invest his own money to produce more food to sell at the market rate, to re-invest, etc? NONE. But when that incentive exists, people are freed from the land, and the next thing a country has to offer is cheap labor.

You cannot justify paying Western style rages to cheap labor overseas, if they do not have the same skill set. This is fair however, because with time, this cheap labor and the demand for it will be the very thing that increases their real wage. It happened in Taiwan, South Korea and is happening right now in Thailand, Vietnam, etc. Look at Taiwans, South Koreas average income per captia, and look at Vietnams, where it has risen 7 times in the last 2 decades, after being destroyed by war. This in itself proves that nations are not destined for exploitation. Again, how can it be exploitation? It is the free market at operation. Two parties are entering into a transaction that would not occur if it didn't benefit both parties. Both parties voluntarily enter into it, and they are not coerced. What a horrible thing that two parties can both benefit from something!

It is a necessary part of an economies development, because while parents now have a guaranteed income source to purchase food, while earning wages way above the average in their home countries, their children aren't slaves to the land and goto school and gather an education which will increase their productivity as adults, and the nation will benefit from it on the whole, but most importantly, so will the children as individuals. And why? Why do they do this, because the incentive exists.

The market will decide what the ideal wage is. But you think that overseas countries are destined to this kind of cheap labor, but it is completely untrue. It is a necessary part for a nations development.

Look at Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam for example. Taiwan and South Korea are examples of nations where, at first they supplied cheap labor.

Such a hard toil on mankind.

Lifting nations out of poverty when they adopt full market principles, and being a natural pre-requisite for social and political freedom. And being a wonderful safeguard on tyranny, although not perfect, it disperses centralised power.

As far as I am concerned, the free market is the most democratic institute we as humans have. When we vote for our governments, its once every 3, 4 years. But in the market! We vote every day with our dollars! Competition! Love it!

I challenge anyone who says capitalism is the worst system ever, to name a better system and explain why.

Yo Kangaroo........for being inactive for so long?

 

[Bobby]

What a load of crap.

You people think Capitalism is to blame for all the problems of the world. You all fail to recognise that without economic freedom you cannot have social and political freedom, as a general rule of thumb. What has been the best thing for the people of China? What has seen them slowly achieve some social gains? Oh yeah, opening up their markets.

Get a map of the world, and look at nations with the most economic freedom, then apply a map of nations with the most political and social freedom, I bet it is almost exactly the same.

Freedom is not the natural state of man, freedom is unique and precious. The state we live in today world wide is historic and unique. Never before have so many people been free, and it is no coincidence that this has occurred during the reign of capitalism.

But what a horrible thing, free men pursing their own interests, and doing so through voluntary co-operation on any matter what so ever, and it being beneficial for both parties in some way shape or form.

And ultimately, this is what capitalism boils down to. Incentives. People operate on incentives, they don't do things for any other reason. And evidently, this system works. All nations who have adopted capitalism and the free market, and who are shying away from protectionism, from government interference, on average live much better than other countries. And this all boils down to the individual, giving them property rights, giving them incentives to make their land more productive in terms of growing food. If this incentive never existed, the United States would still be an agriculturally based economy, because free willed individuals would have no incentive to find new ways of producing food. But now, the 2% of the United States can produce enough food, to feed the rest of the country.

This frees people from the land, and moves them into other areas and the country as a whole benefits. And this is how cheap labor overseas works. First of all, nations need to grant their citizens property rights, half the ******* reason why Africa is so poor. What incentive is their for a farmer in Kenya, to add a mill to his farm? To invest his own money to produce more food to sell at the market rate, to re-invest, etc? NONE. But when that incentive exists, people are freed from the land, and the next thing a country has to offer is cheap labor.

You cannot justify paying Western style rages to cheap labor overseas, if they do not have the same skill set. This is fair however, because with time, this cheap labor and the demand for it will be the very thing that increases their real wage. It happened in Taiwan, South Korea and is happening right now in Thailand, Vietnam, etc. Look at Taiwans, South Koreas average income per captia, and look at Vietnams, where it has risen 7 times in the last 2 decades, after being destroyed by war. This in itself proves that nations are not destined for exploitation. Again, how can it be exploitation? It is the free market at operation. Two parties are entering into a transaction that would not occur if it didn't benefit both parties. Both parties voluntarily enter into it, and they are not coerced. What a horrible thing that two parties can both benefit from something!

It is a necessary part of an economies development, because while parents now have a guaranteed income source to purchase food, while earning wages way above the average in their home countries, their children aren't slaves to the land and goto school and gather an education which will increase their productivity as adults, and the nation will benefit from it on the whole, but most importantly, so will the children as individuals. And why? Why do they do this, because the incentive exists.

The market will decide what the ideal wage is. But you think that overseas countries are destined to this kind of cheap labor, but it is completely untrue. It is a necessary part for a nations development.

Look at Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam for example. Taiwan and South Korea are examples of nations where, at first they supplied cheap labor.

Such a hard toil on mankind.

Lifting nations out of poverty when they adopt full market principles, and being a natural pre-requisite for social and political freedom. And being a wonderful safeguard on tyranny, although not perfect, it disperses centralised power.

As far as I am concerned, the free market is the most democratic institute we as humans have. When we vote for our governments, its once every 3, 4 years. But in the market! We vote every day with our dollars! Competition! Love it!

I challenge anyone who says capitalism is the worst system ever, to name a better system and explain why.

I told you Simon. Do not bash the right, he will crush you.

 

[Ev0la]

Oh sh!t seems like someone has taken my crown away from the one and only true upholder of Marxism. SimontheMime .

Anyways, I don't give a **** about Christmas. I don't give a **** about some jewish fag who lived thousands of years ago and preached some pussy-ass peace and miracle ideology. What does that have to do with me? I'm ****en Mexican for crying out loud, I should be ****en preaching about Aztlan or something. Anyways, to hell with Christ, to hell with consumerism, to hell with capitalism, and **** Santa.

And have a merry santamas !!! From your old buddy moron!

 

[Nettles]

woot, watch 'Die Fetten Jahre Sind Vorbei (The Edukators)' (I'm talking to the capital stuff up there).

not so much for the movie (ok the movie's not bad either) but more for the idea stuff in it. I downloaded it from one of those torrent sites with english subtitles (they obviously wouldn't have it at a video store here, don't sue me).

 

[vitu]

I don' celebrate Christmas b/c nowhere in the bible is written that Jesus was born on December 25th and at the time of his birth the bible says that shepherds were outside taking care of their sheep. Now who does that during the winter? I personally believe that the whole Christmas holiday comes from paganism. Jesus never celebrated his birthday and never didn't ask people to celebrate it. It's not written on the bible. However he did ask his disciples to remember his death after he had the last dinner with them yet people don't do it on a certain day like they celebrate his fake birthday.