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Muslim Flag-burners in London.

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by SoulitudeAgain
Hey everybody..
I am not supporting those flag-burners, here.. and I am not even remotely interested in politics.. It's just that it's sooo easy for us to judge people and sentence them to idiocy, when we're relaxing in our chairs in front of our luxurious computers, in our air-conditioned room. The easiest thing, under such facilitated circumstances, is to recognize this man or that one as an idiot who's simply a disgrace to humanity.. just as long as we know the charge won't be thrown back at us.. But, how much time do we take to think about the reasons that made that guy do that action that pissed us off? If we are pissed off for a couple of minutes.. could it be that this guy had his life totally ruined for a lifetime? Could it be that he lost the ones he loved? Maybe his wife got raped in front of his eyes? Sounds improbable? Well, maybe he watched his father's head being blown off? Not realisitc? Well.. could it be that his child was made handicapped in front of his helpless eyes? Maybe this cry of anger.. this burning flag is his only way to protest and express his pain and feeling of oppression? What would make a man whose religion teaches him peace, love, compassion and calmness (a religion like Islam), turn into such a raging figure.. what? Do we ever take the time to think of the motives, before we sentence people to death with our words and tongues? All the assaults that I mentioned before, happen every day in occupied muslims lands, all over the world... Starting with Palestine, to Iraq and tens of other places.. And if this man wasn't directly subjected to such an experience.. maybe his brother, sister, friend or fellow-human was subjected to it..

BUT: we still have the right to simple, easily.. call him an idiot!

Have a magnificent day..

The question I must ask you is this. Does it matter how bad a person's life has been if that person wants to kill you in the name of religion? Personally, if someone wants to kill me, for whatever reason, I don't care how bad his life was.

The man we are dealing with in this context probably did have a bad life. He lost both of his hands fighting the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. But he was fighting Communists... not Britian.

Your words "occupied lands" already tells me that you have a chip on your shoulder about the world today. Your wording is exactly what this man uses to get young Muslims to want to blow up airplanes with their shoes, and to go fight a jihad in Afghanistan.

But the final point is this. Justifying the actions of a madman just because he had a bad life is completley wrong and insane. If he did see all of this stuff that you mentioned, maybe he should see a Pschologist... I am sure the taxpayers of Britain will end up paying the bill anyway.
 

shokz

The Red Devil
Hook. (H)

 

hermolt

Starting XI
Originally posted by Elder
The right to free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to spew hatred and advocate killing people in the name of your Religion. People who incite violence are just as guilty as those who perpetrate it. The topic of this thread is this certain group of peopl burning the flag in "political protest." This hooked man should be happy to live in Britian where they don't deport him back to Jordan or wherever it is where he would be put to death for past crimes.

As for the notorious mosque, it should be shut down and an investigation should be forthcoming on what acitivties take place there. Several people have been arrested as part of terrorist plots to kill people, and richard Reid, the idiotic shoe bomber also came from that mosque. Free speech has limits...

I did pluck the figure out of my ass, but I can bet you that it's even higher than 70 percent. What's legally and morally right is such a stupid argument in this case. Especially when the person you are defending advocates the killing of innocent people in western countries.

You really look silly defending such scum.

I'm not defending the people, I'm defending the act. There should be nothing remotely illegal about burning a country's flag.
 

The_Knight

Senior Squad
Originally posted by Elder
The question I must ask you is this. Does it matter how bad a person's life has been if that person wants to kill you in the name of religion? Personally, if someone wants to kill me, for whatever reason, I don't care how bad his life was.

The man we are dealing with in this context probably did have a bad life. He lost both of his hands fighting the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. But he was fighting Communists... not Britian.

Your words "occupied lands" already tells me that you have a chip on your shoulder about the world today. Your wording is exactly what this man uses to get young Muslims to want to blow up airplanes with their shoes, and to go fight a jihad in Afghanistan.

But the final point is this. Justifying the actions of a madman just because he had a bad life is completley wrong and insane. If he did see all of this stuff that you mentioned, maybe he should see a Pschologist... I am sure the taxpayers of Britain will end up paying the bill anyway.

Now u can either speak politics, or u can speak religion....

From the looks of this flag burning act, the obvious and shameful support for a terrorist, drug dealer, murderer, who -even worse- claims he's doing that in the name of my religion... (the first letter of his name is.. OSSAMA BIN LADEN)... well that all lets me and everyone else condemn this act 100%.... now that we've reached a judgement, let's start THINKING about this act.

What drove this person (the leader of this flag burning parade) to taking that action... did he know he was losing the support of the community he lives in with this act? SURE he did.
Did he (and the ppl with him) think Blair would withdraw the british army from the land they OCCUPIED in the name of 'War against Terror'...... (yeah 'occupied' is the word, no need for more cosmetic operations)? Sure he didn't....

So basically, these ppl have NOTHING to lose.... No job to lose, no reason to live for, no love to care about... nothing. No I'm sorry, I didn't meant 'nothing'... they have some things left..: Hatred, sense of Oppression, a growing feeling of insecurity, and the terrible feeling of BEING TARGETED.

So now lets talk more politics... Now who's benefiting from this act?
Yes of course there has to be a benefiter. Behind every act -however harmful, absurd and foolish it may seem to be-... is a benefiter....

Is someone trying to shake ppl's trust in Blair? Is someone trying to convince ppl that: Hey there's the terror, and that's why we went into war...
Is there.. Is there....?

Well whatever the questions and answers are... some party is using the circumstances these ppl found themselves in, for its own good.

Plz avoid always being direct in ur judgments.
 

X-Ter

Senior Squad
Originally posted by C-B
If they don't like Britain, they should piss off.

Even though i am a muslim, i totally agree with you. They live here, the country gives them food and then they burn a flag? If they dont like britain then they should either change some government rules or go away. :kader:
 

JTNY

Starting XI
Some people really are stupid. Humans have not come far, stupid people vouch for bad parents and the line of ignorance and idiocy continues. Due to this complex, we get the atrocious and hate-filled opinions voiced in this thread.
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by hermolt
I'm not defending the people, I'm defending the act. There should be nothing remotely illegal about burning a country's flag.

Agreed, but the fact that it is THIS man who is doing it, and also radical Muslims is what makes it a polarizing issue. This man is being protected from death by the British government...
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by JTNY
Some people really are stupid. Humans have not come far, stupid people vouch for bad parents and the line of ignorance and idiocy continues. Due to this complex, we get the atrocious and hate-filled opinions voiced in this thread.

I think you completely miss the fact that the hate-filled opinions are being voiced by this hooked fanatic. Not in the name of political discourse, but in the name of religous hatred and murder. That is where the focus should be, not on the reaction to such a person.
 

USA Supporter

Reserve Team
Originally posted by JTNY
Some people really are stupid. Humans have not come far, stupid people vouch for bad parents and the line of ignorance and idiocy continues. Due to this complex, we get the atrocious and hate-filled opinions voiced in this thread.

The only people I have hate for are terrorists and those who support it. I don't hate Islam. I don't see anything wrong with hating terrorists, these people kill innocents. I'm not saying the flag burners were terrorists but they clearly hate the country they live in. If you hate a country so much, then why are you there. I know for a fact that I don't want anti-Americans in the USA. They do have the right to live here, but why live here if you hate it so much.

I don't think flag burning should necessarily be illegal but I do see something wrong with it. If someone was burning an American flag in the USA, it would really piss me off. Burning a flag shows hatred for a country and it is extremely disrespectful.

"Hate filled opinions" are those of Osama bin Laden and his supporters. They are against Western culture and they are against freedom. They want destruction and they want to murder innocents. I don't know about you, but I have a problem with that.

I'm not saying every Muslim is a terrorist because I know that isn't true. I have friends that are Muslim and I don't think there is anything wrong with their religion. However, there are people all over the world, both Islamic and not, who do support terrorism. There are people in the USA who support terrorism. Terrorists struck the USA on 9/11 (and I saw the smoke from the buildings that day) and could easily strike again. Terrorism is a threat and must be defeated.

For those who think terrorism happens because of the USA's war in Afghanistan or the USA's war in Iraq, I do not think this is true. On 9/11/01, the USA was not involved in any war in the Middle East. We were attacked out of no where, and as a result over 3000 people were killed. Because of this attack, we went into Afghanistan. The USA has the right to defend itself and did the right thing by attacking. What do you expect us to do? 3000 people died, so I think the only option was to go in and attack al Qaeda and the Taliban who allowed al Qaeda to safely stay in their country.
 

SoulitudeAgain

Club Supporter
Hatred-filled! :)

Hi everybody..
I hope I am not the one meant by 'hate-filled opinions'.. Coz, God knows I hate no one!

We should all make a huge differentiation between the flag-burners and the terrorists.. Flag-burners are ones who (for whatever reason) felt a huge amount of rage and injustice iflicted upon them by a certain authority and expressed this kind of feeling by burning this country's flag.. wasted energy!

While, terrorists are ones who direct their raging feelings into the path of killing innocent civilians.. an act that's highly condemned by Islam. After one of the battles at the time of the prophet, the prophet saw a dead woman between the lines of the enemy.. It is known that women at this battle had no part. The prophet was so furious and he said: "This woman was never to be faught!"..

So, anyway.. I think a wrong concept here is that "Some muslims are peaceful and good, while Islam itself is not!"

Well, this is totally untrue.. I have to go in a minute, but I'll just post you a few verses that would explain what I mean.. They are verses in which Allah asks the muslims to show a great deal of mercy and forgiveness, even to the ones who cause them great harm..

"Many of the people of the Scripture wish that if they could turn you away as disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from their ownselves, even after the truth has become manifest unto them. But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His Command." (Quran 2:109)

And concerning some of the Jews who betrayed the prophet a verse says:
"And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive and overlook. Verily, Allah loves the good-doers." (Quran 5:13)

"Let them pardon and forgive. Do you not love that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 24:22)

And concerning the pagan Arab tribes that used to harm the prophet and torture his followers in many ways, Allah told the prophet to..:
"So turn away from them, and say: Salam (Peace)! But they will come to know." (Quran 44:89)

"But if you pardon (them) and overlook, and forgive (their faults), then verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 64:14)

That's concerning the ones who claim that Islam is a religion of hatred..

About the ones who claim that muslims force others to join Islam and that Islam is the most rapidly spreading religion because of Power and Oppression (what power do muslims have these days anyway)...

"There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in false deities and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower." (Quran 2:256)

"And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So, will you then compel mankind to become believers?!" (Quran 10:99)

"And say: 'The Truth is from your Lord.' Then whosoever wills, let him believe; and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve." (Quran 18:29)

Well, I think the aforementioned examples are enough to prove that there is no way, whatsoever, that a non-muslim would be compelled to join Islam. In fact, if this happens, his submission (Islam) would not be considered valid! One of the polythiests once came to the prophet and declared that he has believed in Islam and has become a muslim. Then, he told the prophet that his son (the man's son) was still a polythiest.. "Ask me, and I shall force him to leave his false deities and become a muslim, O prophet!" But the prophet quietly answered him: "There is no compulsion in religion."

The idea of Jihad (Holy Battles) and fights in Islam is quite simple and understandable. I would explain that, if you ask me to..

I guess I'll go, now, guys..
You're all much loved..
Peace be upon him who follows guidance...
 

rhizome17

Fan Favourite
I presume when people say 'send them home', they mean to one of those many places that were invaded and colonised by the British and other European countries, divided up, had their resources exploited for the benefit of European economic development whilst the majority of the people in the colonised country remained poor, were forced to live in 'nations' created by the colonisers who ignored the fact that it meant enemy ethnic groups lived side by side (Rwanda, anyone?), had dictators installed by the colonising power to supress revolt and ensure a clean flow of resources to the former power when they 'pulled out', and then when any post-colonial attempt at self-rule occurred, had to put up with the US stepping in to make sure that the oppression and exploitation continued, once Europe was focused on post-WW2 rebuilding.

Oh dear, you all live in nations that grew fat on the exploitation of Africa, Asia and the Middle East, and you get upset by a little flag burning? What, they should just 'get over it'? A few generations of exploitation and oppression, first at the hands of the colonising powers, and then their proxy rulers? You wonder where 'terrorism' comes from?
Hey, question for everyone - whose fault is it that the Kurds didn't get the nation state they were promised after WW2? Hey - the same place that has the Union Carlos as its flag :|. Hey, who set up the borders of Iraq? Hey, little clue - same answer as the question before. Hey, expand this to vast tracts of the globe. Hey presto. You might learn something.

:rolleyes:
 

The_Knight

Senior Squad
One other thing...
They don't need to see a psychologist...
They need to follow their own religion that tells them to:

1) Be productive, find a job that serves both you and your community. (within permissible.. e.g. not in liqour handling..etc.)

2) Be Patient, you cannot face bad conditions by growing fear into the ppl and making their conditions as bad as yours.

3) Abide to the rules and regulations of the country you are living in [as long as they do not cause you to do/perform an act that is forbidden]

4) Set a good example. Because by your deviation you are responsible for the development of the twisted understandings of islam, specially in a foreign country.

5) Direct your efforts and energy towards knowledge and education. Which brings us back to 'productivity'.

6)Don't sell the principles of your religion for the sake of some political party. Whatever the equation is, you are the losers.
(What happened in this flag burning occasion is 500% an act of politics not related to religion whatsoever)
 

yoyo913

Team Captain
who cares

if u are that mentally affected by some losers doing acts to piss u off they u r a moron also
 

JTNY

Starting XI
Originally posted by USA Supporter
The only people I have hate for are terrorists and those who support it. I don't hate Islam. I don't see anything wrong with hating terrorists, these people kill innocents. I'm not saying the flag burners were terrorists but they clearly hate the country they live in. If you hate a country so much, then why are you there. I know for a fact that I don't want anti-Americans in the USA. They do have the right to live here, but why live here if you hate it so much.

I don't think flag burning should necessarily be illegal but I do see something wrong with it. If someone was burning an American flag in the USA, it would really piss me off. Burning a flag shows hatred for a country and it is extremely disrespectful.

"Hate filled opinions" are those of Osama bin Laden and his supporters. They are against Western culture and they are against freedom. They want destruction and they want to murder innocents. I don't know about you, but I have a problem with that.

I'm not saying every Muslim is a terrorist because I know that isn't true. I have friends that are Muslim and I don't think there is anything wrong with their religion. However, there are people all over the world, both Islamic and not, who do support terrorism. There are people in the USA who support terrorism. Terrorists struck the USA on 9/11 (and I saw the smoke from the buildings that day) and could easily strike again. Terrorism is a threat and must be defeated.

For those who think terrorism happens because of the USA's war in Afghanistan or the USA's war in Iraq, I do not think this is true. On 9/11/01, the USA was not involved in any war in the Middle East. We were attacked out of no where, and as a result over 3000 people were killed. Because of this attack, we went into Afghanistan. The USA has the right to defend itself and did the right thing by attacking. What do you expect us to do? 3000 people died, so I think the only option was to go in and attack al Qaeda and the Taliban who allowed al Qaeda to safely stay in their country.

This has been said before and I am sick, but I just don't like reading what you just wrote.

3000 Americans died. Yes. Terrible stuff. The question remains - who do you seek retribution against? A terrorist cell is not a nation. Now, the media and your government have told you that, these people are evil, and were in cahootz with the evil Taliban which was subsequently removed form power. Afghanistan was invaded, because about 20 guys mostly Saudi Arabians flew three planes into United States building, and a fourth into the gorund. The United States had no right to do that. Many nations harbour terrorists, this "war on terror" is absurd. One cannot declare war on "terror". It is similar to the Reaganite incursions of the 80s. Except then it was communists in South and Latin America. These are excuses to further the military industrial complex - the production of armament to appease a hungry economy.

Now, when you look at Afghanistan today, it is in no better situation. People are still oppressed, it is still the world's principal opium producer and war lords still control their own areas. The Talibna are gone, but the situation is not any better, if not worse. When you think about, you (hopefully) will realise that campaigns such as Afghanistan will create more terrorists than what were captured and hauled off to camp x-ray illegally.

3000 lives lost in the United States - because of a splinter group who are thugs - plain and simple thugs. Not a nation. This is dealt with like the police would deal with criminals, not a full scale invasion of a country. These thugs - why do they enter the cycle of violence? They see oppression in their homeland - in the form of poverty and the exploitation of their homelands by Western nations. They had nothing to lose. Yes, terrorists, but what is a terrorist?

What is a terrorist? Islamic extremists who propagate violence? No. A terrorist is anyone who propagates violence for some sort of gain, whether that be political, fiscal, whatever. I would define the incursion into Afghanistan an act of terror. Except that was worse. The heads of the United States military and Government have had the benefits of education, wealth and good standards of living and still resorted to war and murder.

Do you seriously think that because 3000 American civilians were killed justifies an attack on a practically defenceless nation? Civilian casaulties were high in Afghanistan too. After the conflict in Afghanistan, nothing has been achieved. Al Qaeda and similar groups cannot be dismantled, the military machine of the US cannot stop them, they are an invisible target. The war on (not in) Afghanistan will only ensure that Al Qaeda membership develops further.

You hate terrorists? Do you hate only terrorists put about in the media or all terrorists? Do you hate when civilians die, or only when American civilians die? Do you care that indeed the united States has acted in state sponsored terror in the past?

I think that the climate of fear and reactionary political doctrine flooding the 'west' at the moment is a leap backward for humankind. Yes, it is creating hate, which can only get worse if recent occurrences continue.

That was long..... I need a drink.
 

ShiftyPowers

Make America Great Again
Here's a great article by a brilliant young progressive concerning terrorism.

http://www.freechoicemedia.com/article.php?id=197

And to the guy quoted in the above message, you clearly don't know much. The war in afghanistan was not the reason for terrorism, you yourself deem this absurd. Maybe you need to learn a more history before you assume the first United States incursion into the Middle East that could possibly make someone mad was in late 2001.
 

JTNY

Starting XI
Free Choice Media - affilate of a certainn Joseph?:rolleyes:

Afghanistan - Californian company gains contract to gas pipeline linking South Asia to all the 'stan' countries.
 

USA Supporter

Reserve Team
Originally posted by JTNY
This has been said before and I am sick, but I just don't like reading what you just wrote.

3000 Americans died. Yes. Terrible stuff. The question remains - who do you seek retribution against? A terrorist cell is not a nation. Now, the media and your government have told you that, these people are evil, and were in cahootz with the evil Taliban which was subsequently removed form power. Afghanistan was invaded, because about 20 guys mostly Saudi Arabians flew three planes into United States building, and a fourth into the gorund. The United States had no right to do that. Many nations harbour terrorists, this "war on terror" is absurd. One cannot declare war on "terror". It is similar to the Reaganite incursions of the 80s. Except then it was communists in South and Latin America. These are excuses to further the military industrial complex - the production of armament to appease a hungry economy.

Are you fucking kidding me? The USA was attacked and you don't think we have the right to seek revenge. The people flying may mostly have been Saudi Arabian, but the Osama bin Laden was behind the attack and his group, al Qaeda, was heardquarted in Afghanistan. The Taliban allowed al Qaeda to stay within its border. The USA had a damn good reason to go into Afghanistan. I would have been really pissed if the USA did nothing against the group who was behind the death of over 3000 innocent people.

Originally posted by JTNY
Now, when you look at Afghanistan today, it is in no better situation. People are still oppressed, it is still the world's principal opium producer and war lords still control their own areas. The Talibna are gone, but the situation is not any better, if not worse. When you think about, you (hopefully) will realise that campaigns such as Afghanistan will create more terrorists than what were captured and hauled off to camp x-ray illegally.

3000 lives lost in the United States - because of a splinter group who are thugs - plain and simple thugs. Not a nation. This is dealt with like the police would deal with criminals, not a full scale invasion of a country. These thugs - why do they enter the cycle of violence? They see oppression in their homeland - in the form of poverty and the exploitation of their homelands by Western nations. They had nothing to lose. Yes, terrorists, but what is a terrorist?

What is a terrorist? Islamic extremists who propagate violence? No. A terrorist is anyone who propagates violence for some sort of gain, whether that be political, fiscal, whatever. I would define the incursion into Afghanistan an act of terror. Except that was worse. The heads of the United States military and Government have had the benefits of education, wealth and good standards of living and still resorted to war and murder.

Do you seriously think that because 3000 American civilians were killed justifies an attack on a practically defenceless nation? Civilian casaulties were high in Afghanistan too. After the conflict in Afghanistan, nothing has been achieved. Al Qaeda and similar groups cannot be dismantled, the military machine of the US cannot stop them, they are an invisible target. The war on (not in) Afghanistan will only ensure that Al Qaeda membership develops further.

You hate terrorists? Do you hate only terrorists put about in the media or all terrorists? Do you hate when civilians die, or only when American civilians die? Do you care that indeed the united States has acted in state sponsored terror in the past?

I think that the climate of fear and reactionary political doctrine flooding the 'west' at the moment is a leap backward for humankind. Yes, it is creating hate, which can only get worse if recent occurrences continue.[/B]

I hate terrorists who kill innocents regardless of what country they are from. The attacks on Spain, Turkey, and everywhere else in the world disgust me as well. However, according to you, attacking terrorist groups is terrorism. :rolleyes: How dare the USA attack a group who killed 3000 people. They have no right to do that. If a country is attacked, they should just sit on their asses and do nothing. :rolleyes:

I can understand when someone is against the war on Iraq. However, the USA had to do something after 9/11. We had to go after the dispicable people who committed this act. The USA definitely had the right to go after these thugs. I would have been disgusted if we did not attack al Qaeda after 9/11. It was necessary.

You basically just said in your post that al Qaeda should get away with what they did. You said that we did not have the right to go after them. The USA decided not to just sit on their asses but instead to retaliate and not let the terrorists get away with what they did.
 

rhizome17

Fan Favourite
Sorry USASupporter, but when your 'retaliation' ends up killing over 10,000 innocent people, you kind of lose the moral high ground.
 

SoulitudeAgain

Club Supporter
Peace..
Yeah.. Plus, Mofo didn't say that the terrorists themselves shouldn't be hunted down and punished. He simply said that this wasn't (and couldn't) be done by attacking and bringing down an entire nation, like Afghanistan. The claimed motives that motivate every American military action end up in failure.. they fail to achieve the real motive, and the end up with the casualities among the citizens that maybe exceed the number of casualities among the American ones.. but: it seems the American blood is a little bit much more expensive and dear than the Eastern one...

Anyway... I hate politics like hell! I believe it is Satan's ChessBoard on earth! And the media is the dice that manipulate the brains, concepts and passions of masses. Politics is an inevitable fact that I try to avoid, and sorry if my message offended anyone..

You're all much loved...
Have an amazing day!
 


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