Gettin' buggered every match!

[akvelocity365]

Whoo... talk about frustration lads. The European Cup is the only tourney which I still haven't been able to win on 5 star! Well, who really gives a flyin' hoot to be honest. But, what the heck, I might as well vent before I go ape on my PS2. NOT GOOD! Ah... whoa is me. I have been every good team in the book, but no luck. Yesterday, instead of doing homework, I wasted time on WE7, time well spent of course. I played as Itali. Dominated each and every stinkin' match, fired shots left and right, killed on possession, and not one stinkin' goal went in. I rarely got any good looks, and when I did, the stinkin guys would shank their shots!
AHHHHH. Give me a break, ya know?! So somehow I advance! HA. Talk about luck. Anyway, then the quarterfinals, played some team, don't even remember (all my european cup attempts have just blended in all together) lost 1-0 even though I dominated that match! AYE. This is gettin' krazy guys! The only thing I know i haven't done is mess with the different strategies since I am waiting for a 100% english patch. I mean, any of ya other guys having troubles as much as I! It's taking me forever to win the cup, I won't give up obviously, but it's driving me a bit nuts. I think right now, I am using Netherlands and am about to play Portugal in the quarters. My qualification matches were all the same though, dominated, had only one goal go in! I am definitely gettin screwed over hardcore here.

 

[charles]

computer adaptation?

Interesting stuff - I wonder if it's related to what I am experiencing. I'm not on level 5, but I notice that the game gets progressively more difficult even though I don't change star rating. The computer just shuts me down faster and really fouls up my offense. Here's what happened.

First got the game and I was soon in the flow, passing and moving and scoring without much trouble. After about 30 games or so (different teams, tournaments, etc.) things started to get harder. The AI would be all over me and even though I could control possession, I could do NOTHING when I got near the computer's penalty area. The defense and midfielders would basically drop back into a wall and block me.

I remembered reading about some feature where the computer adapts to your play, so on a whim I erased my option file. When I restarted, it felt like a completely different game. More space, more movements, back into the old groove. Another 30 games or so and I am back where I started and really struggling even if I choose a great team and a crap opponent. I just can't seem to do more than a 1-0 victory unless I get a lucky bounce or something. I can't count the number of times I've hit the bar on really easy shots.

Has anyone noticed something like this? It also seems that your team is worse when you're playing an away match, but not all the time. The response times and ball control seem to be lowered.

 

[mathewsss]

Charles:
I think what you've experienced is evolving/adapting AI.
The CPU just gets better and faster the more you play
in a league/cup. The more you win, the more the CPU gets better.
I've faced the same thing too.
IMO it's not such a great feature, because it's not realistic.
It's basically the CPU controlling more of the game than normal.
I don't prefer it that way.

Akvel:
Tell me about it man. I know how you feel. At times it can be really frustrating. Which is why I'm staying away from 5* right now. I prefer 4* which is fun and challenging at the same time.
I'm not too good at the game now, so I'm happy with the challenge offered by 4*.
I am also tempted to go to 5* and start getting used to it,
but I know that it can be very frustrating doing so.
There's no point playing a game if you're pulling your hair out.
It's just a game. (I know ..I know...I still treat it like the real thing)
BTW playing ML on 4* is no joke. Initially I won my first 3 games and after that got spanked in 3 games. Still not very comfortable with the default ML team. I need to get some new signings ASAP.
Still fighting for promotion with 2 games to go.

 

[Ronaldoisagod9]

When i play tourney's...i save after a win...yeh, yeh, yeh...it's cheating...but damn, some of the stuff the cpu does on 5star can be listed under cheating as well.

 

[charles]

Good to know that I'm not insane or starting to lose my coordination...

I guess I'll just have to adjust my style and make the CPU try to learn something different, because I don't want to erase my option file every week or so. I tried playing even more "possessively" yesterday to pull the AI team back away from their goal and it seemed to work, so maybe I'll focus on that.

 

[culo]

Originally posted by mathewsss
It's basically the CPU controlling more of the game than normal.

True, that's exactly what it is. The AI guys do get faster, more agile, etc than normal (ie the AI guys gets a stats boost) but it really annoys me when you can see the cpu is interefering with your guys too - it's like scripted gameplay at times. But that's how KCET have always done level 5.

What is really getting oin my goat is the pathetically biased refereeing. The AI can continually foul away (slide tackles, anything it wants) and the ref hardly even gives a free-kick, let alone a card. Yet every clean slide tackle I make, clearly winning the ball and the the AI guy just touches my sliding body and it's out with tht red or yellow every boody time. It's so obvious it's biased that it's starting to ruin the game for me.

Come on KCET, your refs are complete sh*t. 0 out of 10 for the refereeing - it's completely sucks, it's the worst Ive ever seen.

 

[gian]

i've heard that the referes in pes3 will be new and will be more smarter.

 

[nickclubman]

Hmmm, sounds like Konami have put in a feature to make you change your play, as the CPU learns your tactics and habbits.

Very, very cool feature!

 

[simakperrce]

i'd say if this game were a tactical shooter or some sort of FPS game i'd applaud this idea with the AI adapting.. but IMO it is extremely annoying for being in a footie game.

the same effect has already been in PES2.. when you play master league on extreme for example the first 5 or so matches are ok and you can pull a couple of wins, but then everything gets progressively harder. what annoys me most about it is that even teams which are last in the rankings (and keep losing to all the other CPU teams) are playing their game of the year when against you... i have my personal "want to smash the TV" experience on a frequent basis with Aston Villa... last in 3rd league.. sucking a$$.. but when they play me they play like little gods..

also, when you play a tournament each next level is getting progressively harder, even though the team (in real life) might be weaker... so, it's easier to eliminate, say, Argentina in the quarters than winning against Norway in the semi's...

doesn't make much sense to me..

 

[charles]

some research

After reading some other comments, I've done some more experiments with this "AI adaptation" thing...

1. What I initially thought was adaptation, isn't. It's just cheating based on reducing the response times of my players. This makes the computer more likely to win 50-50 balls and my players don't make interceptions, run out, or accelerate the way they should. Passing also seems to be slower.

2. The cheating seems to kick in if you consistently win games against the CPU, whether in a tournament or in friendlies. It also occurs independent of your difficulty level.

3. The only way I've found to turn it off is to erase the option file, which erases any record of your performance. I've tried this a few times now and it provides an immediate boost.

So, instead of erasing the option file from the PS2 system menu (which would wipe all my WEN and editing), I erased it from within WE7. I then saved a new option file with the settings that were loaded into memory. The result was the cheating stopped, but I didn't lose my WEN or all of the kit editing, etc. that I had done. I'll keep trying and see what happens...

 

[mathewsss]

Re: some research

Originally posted by charles

1. What I initially thought was adaptation, isn't. It's just cheating based on reducing the response times of my players. This makes the computer more likely to win 50-50 balls and my players don't make interceptions, run out, or accelerate the way they should. Passing also seems to be slower.

2. The cheating seems to kick in if you consistently win games against the CPU, whether in a tournament or in friendlies. It also occurs independent of your difficulty level.

I agree with your findings. I've seen it happen a few times now.
IMO Konami have come out with all these fancy sounding new features. But they have messed up on many of them.
- "Evolving AI" glorified version of CPU cheating/stats boost and also making your players crappy.
- Realistic headers : defenders do head the ball towards their own goal. This can result in easy goals for CPU. I've seen my defenders give away the most annoying goals because of this.
It takes about 2-3 headers to get the ball out of the box.
I've seen the CPU do it very rarely in it's penalty box.

 

[culo]

Re: some research

Originally posted by charles
After reading some other comments, I've done some more experiments with this "AI adaptation" thing...

1. What I initially thought was adaptation, isn't. It's just cheating based on reducing the response times of my players. This makes the computer more likely to win 50-50 balls and my players don't make interceptions, run out, or accelerate the way they should. Passing also seems to be slower.

Exactly.

I can live with the AI guys becoming super-charged (the AI should be excellent on level 5) but I really get annoyed when the game makes your guys start to play like sh*t because of stats reduction, the refs becoming more obviously biased and apparently scripted ball deflections to ensure that nearly every deflection ends up at an AI guys feet.

 

[akvelocity365]

Wow guys, I mean, I get buggered and all by the game, but I don't see it as that bad. It's not denial because I would definitely pounce on cheating if I saw it. The only "possible" cheating is "last defender" speed on the ball carrier. If you attempt to outrun a slow defender with an obviously faster player, the cpu can always catch up 99% of the time. Boosted stats and everything else? I don't get that impression to be honest. I mean, it ticks me off when I have those games where I feel like I should have some goals atleast when I end up with zero. But to some extent, I has to be my playing style, or lack there of.

I think that I am so used to scoring WE6FE type of goals that I am still trying to do the same to some extent. I am not trying to, but it's been carved into my head without me knowing it, playing 24/7 for months can do that, i think atleast! heh I still feel like I get buggered by the computer in the sense that it has my number. I might be trying to use the same technique or something to get open to score a goal, or maybe I am just blind to obvious cheating, I don't see it that way, but it's a possibility. I am not pulling my hair out yet though, big plus there! I still haven't played my netherlands portugal match yet. Who else has been swamped with school or work?! Jeez... anyway. Off to kill more time and escape higher learning so my brain doesn't fry.

 

[the_man]

I think the "cheating" everyone notices is just new game jitters. 4 months from now, when you can beat Spain with S. Africa, no one is going to hear of the CPU cheating.

With each new game, there are new boundries to what you can do and what you cannot do. This is the initial struggle we face. That is, your on top of your game in WE6FE, you get to WE7 and first couple of games you have trouble getting a shot on goal. This is part of the beauty of the games, this is why we come back for the next version of the game, because of the challenge it posses. Would you like to pick up WE7 that plays like WE6FE with some bug fixes, you go straight to level 5 and you are banging in goals like you haven't skipped a beat? what's the point of that?

As far as supercharged AI. Let me ask you something. When you have been down 1-0, 15 game minutes to go, do you still play contain defence? Do you still knock the ball around in your half of the field, across your defensive line? Unless you want to lose then yes. Since there is no one like that here, your tackles become fiercer, you start to be more inventive in your play - more creative, you start to win corners, you start to give the game everything you can. The AI does the same.

The other day I was playing an IL game vs Argentina...I was Nigeria. I scored early in the game. Argentina started to bring it and I weathered it pretty well. Until they got a throw in. When the screen changed for the throw, I was distracted for a fraction of a second, I looked back and I was moving my defender away from the throw in receipiant (sh!t)...before I could recover, the ball was in play, defender rushes but is too late, the cross is on it's way. Side Bar: I know many of you that have played the game and have said that there are sometimes when you feel that the CPU is going to score and you can't do anything about it...this is one of those moments /Side Bar. Cross goes in, unmarked Crespo heads it in.

Back to the CPU feeling like they are going to score and there is nothing you can do about that...you guys know that feeling, they knock 3 passes together and you are like, uh oh...you can see the goal coming. I don't think it's because the CPU get's into a weird mode and starts going like super mario brothers, whenever I look back it's always because of something that I did wrong defensively. For example, how many times has a stupid pass upfield, led to a counter attack and you pick the ball out of your net? Or how many times has a mistackle in the midfield, exposed your defence? The thing is this happens in real life also. I mean, how many times have you seen Real madrid, when they start stringing some passes together you feel the goal coming, and they score. It's not very dissimilar. IMHO.

 

[culo]

Sorry, but i still go with Charles on this one - there is a basic, (reasonably) subtle change in the way the game plays and I think his comments pretty much sum up what is happening.

Certainly, playing WE7 against the AI, the game has changed for the better since WE6, particularly in the AI's pressing tactics and the game is more enjoyable for it. Retaining possession and creating chances is harder and this is most definitely a good thing. This is not the "cheating" to which we refer. We're talking about those situations when a match just feels different and when we calmly analyse what is actually happening, it is clear that Charles is correct in what he says.

I see no evidence of some super-intelligent AI model which analyses your tactics and modifies it's strategy accordingly - I don't think I've ever seen the AI change formation during a match yet. The real change is a tangible difference in the players stats and other values which are fed into the game engine to give a greater bias to the AI. I think even KCET would, if pushed, have to admit that this is essentially what is at the heart of their adaptive AI.

But the real strength of WE7, as with all previous titles, is in 2 (or more) player mode when all these issues become conspicuous by their absence.

 

[charles]

I hear what you're saying, the_man, and I have to say that I'm definitely experiencing the "new game jitters." Even after erasing my option file to eliminate what I call cheating I'm still not winning every game and I have no illusions about being as skilled as many people on this board because I don't even play on level 5.

However, the fact that I'm not winning every game I can put down to my own lack of skill. I know when I made a bad pass, chose to shoot when I shouldn't have, or moved my defender out of position. I know when I selected the wrong tactics for the match. When the CPU scores a great goal, I can appreciate that. These things I can live with and use to improve.

When I felt that the AI was cheating, there was just nothing I could do about it and it really made the game frustrating. Instead of getting that feeling where I just know the CPU is going to score, it gave me the feeling that I could play for 90 real minutes and NEVER score. I didn't win balls I should have, make shots I should have, or find teammates who should have been in positions they weren't. My players were truly sluggish.

When I first started playing I could burn defenders with Henry or Owen fairly consistently and most defenders couldn't catch them on breakaways. One of the things that got me to notice something fishy about the AI was that I started giving these players less of the ball, and that when they got it they lost it immediately. Why? They were no longer in good positions to receive the ball and most noticeably they no longer had the acceleration to escape the defense.

On one hand I appreciate that the game is coded to make me improve my skills, but I'd rather do it at my own pace. Sometimes I just play for fun, you know.

 

[mathewsss]

I think "the_man" is correct about the "new game-feel-factor"
which is a great thing, because WE7 is a challenging game.
5* on WE6FE was easy, but now it's taken me about 1 month to really get adjusted to 4* on WE7. I'm glad because I don't see myself going to 5* atleast for some time.
More time to play this super game, more challenging it is.

But I disagree about the absence of AI cheating/bias.
Regarding the CPU AI, well I agree that it is realistic to put a lot of pressure in the last 15 minutes when they're losing.
It is realistic for me to make mistakes.
BUT what I don't like is that at times my players do the most daft things. Next time the CPU overpowers you on the way to goal, pause the game and look at the replay. You will see how your defenders will move away from the ball most of the time and let the CPU in free...or just watch how the ball physics can get really weird but favourable for the CPU.
Or how the CPU's stats don't mean a thing in the last 10 minutes of the game inspite of it sprinting around all the time.
My feeling at that point is "why the **** did it not let me clear the ball or get to the ball...why is the defender jogging slowly towards the ball or sometimes running away from the ball ???"
Some of the CPU goals are great, no doubt about it.
But at times you just wonder what is going on ?

I think there are two opinions:
- the CPU cheats a lot
- the CPU does'nt cheat at all. It's all down to how one plays.

Both are extreme opinions IMHO.
The truth lies in between. Konami has always used some kind of AI-stats-boost/decrease & AI-scripts.
It's still there in WE7.
I don't mind too much about it. I'm still loving this game to bits.
Every match I play feels different. It's very realistic at times.

 

[culo]

Yeah, I like this game more than any of the previous ones.

And when I think about it, I guess the "cheating" is in some ways a very good idea - after all, in real life, a team can have bad speels and good spells in a match. KCET have actually simulated this by having periods in the match where the players stats are modified a little to give the AI a greater chance of retaining possession and scoring. If the AI just stayed the same all through every match, we'd probably complain that the AI never seem to try harder to score towards the end of a match when they are losing.

They've implemented this feature and although I find the "cheating" can be annoying, particularly when you don;t have proper control of your guys. But the reality is I can still make tactical changes to try to cancel out the AI's improved play and can still do things to help myself create chances on the break. There are no scripts which just kick in a make a goal happen with literally nothing I can do to stop it. I think it's just a case of changes in attributes and other values to give the AI a boost, but you can still intervene. Maybe the best way to think about it is as a new level, level 6, where the game is even harder.

 

[DryHeat]

Cheating in football games is nothing new.

Every game i have played has always had some sort of cheating,from sensible soccer to fifa to pes.

The main cheating is speed cheating. If you have two identical teams with all the same players the cpu team will always be faster than yours.

The problem with PES is that they do use cheats and that the AI for formations is poor.

Problems:
Players running away from the ball.
Players not responding to loose balls,rebounds.
No control on headers and clearances.
Players running slowly to get to the ball.
The ball can be 1 meter in front of one of your players and your player will not even run to it.

The CPU always takes control of players when you do not want it
to e.g.
You pass to a player and you have to press the super cancel just to get control otherwise your player will stand there.

 

[rido]

man,you must admit that the new AI is better than the last one,so you need a better gameplay and strategy to win.when i first play 5* game on we4 after winning it all in 3*,i thought that it's very difficult,but now its so very easy.i think the best way to beat ur 5* com is to play possesion football and be patient for opportunities,wait for the defense to split then take ur shot.if u play direct play and shower the goal with shots,it'll be worthless,coz they all are already gathered inside the box,and ur shots will only find either the stands or the defenders foots.