Dreaming of the future of PES....

[arthur]

I've grown to dislike the AI in the PES series and started to think about what I really wanted more than anything else from future versions of PES. I came to the conclusion that an on-line ML could be fabulous.

Most of the things I don't like about PES/2 come from playing agsint the AI and the "cheats" that crop up in every new version of the game. Playing the ML isn't much fun, not because the ML isn't a great idea but because I find playing against the AI can be very irritating. Playing against other people is much more satisfying but I rarely get the opportunity to play against anyone who is worth playing against.

However, if there was an on-line ML with only "human" teams, it could be superb. There is no reason why there couldn't be a huge ML consisting of many divisions. A calendar could be drawn up for each season and you have to log on to the official PES server at the specifed time of day to play your next match. You play a season against all the other human teams and promotion and relegation would be in operation. Humans could trade players and do all the other team management things already in PES.

You would come up against all sorts of different styles of play, formations and tactics.

There could be cup competitions running concurrently - it would be great if you were in a much lower division and get drawn against a top division team in the cup - you really would be playing against a PES expert and could get absolutely hammered...or cause a major upset. Unlike playing the AI where after a while, every game seems the same, no matter what division you are in.

There would be a number of issues to overcome -

eg. before the whole league begins, who starts in what division?

eg. what time of day to play (assuming players from all over the world)? perhaps if you miss a game, you automatically lose 3-0. Maybe have national leagues so you only play against players who are based in the same country as you.

eg. people wasting time fiddling with formations during a game - but you could just have a clock ticking so that they only have a maximum of say 2 minutes per match for editing formations.

Yeah, I'm dreaming but I'm fed up playing ML against the AI - it's the mpost annoying game I own. The more I think about it, the more I want to see PES go on-line.

Anyone else got any dreams for PES in the future?

 

[MisterX_K]

the first problem would be that you always must play at a determined date. what if you dont have time for whatever important reason?
then your game gets cancelled.
i dont think this will work.

but it s basically a good idea for sure.

anyway, arthur, i dont know if you were lucky enough to get your hands on a we6fe copy recently but you should see this game's AI. it's really much better and more lifelike (no cheating anymore) than all the predecessors IMO.

 

[arthur]

Yeah, maybe the date isn't important, so long as you can arrange a mutually acceptalble time to play against each opponent during the season. There are bound to be a lot of issues to be resolved but I'd really like to see this in the future.

I've not played WE6FE but I can guess what it's like. I've played most of the ISS/PES games in the past 2 years and I notice that it always the same way with each new version....it's great for the first few hours but after playing against the AI in the ML for a while, all the usual KCET irritations and cheats start cropping up agains and again. The actual "on the ball" gameplay gets better and offers more freedom but it's the AI which always causes all the problems.

It's about time they started expanding upon the multi-player capabilities of this game, and that includes on-line play. Some sort of on-line league has to come sometime...hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

[hermolt]

Online leagues work easily - each game merely advances each Saturday/Sunday/Monday or whatever, and you have to have played your game by then.

Unfortunately PS2's online network blows. You have to buy the BB adaptor and it's non-selective thus 56kers can play and lag the buggery out of games..

 

[arthur]

I'm glad to hear that the on-line league principle is nothing new and already in operation. Actually, when I mentioned on-line ML, i really meant having PES for the PC.

But I already know of on-line leagues for PC racing games and they seem to work fine - they're manually maintained so I guess there's no reason why a football league couldn't be manually maintained.

 

[g2bam]

Having run FIFA sites for years, and providing on-line competitions for our users, I know what works and what didn't!

I eventually was recognised by SG in 2001 as having ran one of the most successful on-line leagues in FIFA history.

I achieved that by offering prizes at all levels and stages of the competition and making the league more of a champions league style of 6 group matches and then a 2 legged knockout.

I made match days last a week, i.e. players had from Saturday to Friday to play their fixtures.

The web site controlling it all simply advanced itself by a week every Friday evening. Any results that were outstanding were added as 0-1 away wins, thus placing the reponsibility on the home team player to get the result posted in time.

In a classic league like the ML, it would simply fall apart after a few short weeks, once the guys stuck at the bottom realise they can't win it or progress they lose interest in a very big way and end up dropping out.

I had 16 teams, dropping to 8, then 4 etc, that way things moved fast, no one was completely out of it bar about two players by week 5, so most guys still had something to play for right up to the last week of the group stages.

The winner played 11 matches to win it. In a classic league with home and away fixtures this would have meant everyone playing 30 matches instead!

So cutting down the time involved is a very big help too.

I know all this, because I also previously ran a classic league, and it all fell apart after just 4 weeks by cheats who can't take losing and they refused to come back after they lost a bunch of games.

On-line leagues will work, provided the web site and webmaster running it are robust enough and don't take any nonsense from the particpants.

But they need to be a combination of league matches and knock outs and not a long winded 30 or 40 weeks league championship.

Of course offering 'bribes' in the form of prizes also helps, I made the top 3 prize winning places, then offered prizes for replays taken from games which our resident replay expert analised and awarded prizes for. I also paid out a prize to the one guy who lost every match in his group, for fair play because in spite of his terrible form, he played all of his matches and thefore made the league a success.

If PES3 goes on-line I would seriously consider doing it all again

 

[arthur]

Thanks for the interesting reply.

It's a good point you make about bad losers who quit, thus ruining the league for everyone else, so there is a need to find an incentive to ensure everyone plays until the end of each season.

I had initially envisaged that the on-line league would be organised and managed by Konami, so one option that crosses my mind is that there could be a entrance fee.

Part of this entrance fee could be made refundable if a player fulfilled a minimum number of fixtures in a season (allowance would have to be made for people who go on holiday, get ill or just don't have time in a particular week).

So long as they fulfill say, 90% of their fixtures, then they get their money back at the end of the season, or it acts as entrance payment for the next season. It might sound a bit harsh asking people for money but it may help scare off the casual spoilers/quitters, leaving the competition for serious participants only. Even if you are bottom of the league, if you at least fulfill all of your fixtures, you get some of your money back.

A percentage of the entrance fee would not be refunded, but instead go into a prize pot to reward various league and cup winners, etc.

Konami would provide proper administration for collecting monies, managing the whole league structure, organising fixtures, calendars, providing the server space, etc. Players would then have to officially register with Konami, make their payments to Konami and have their conduct vetted by Konami on an ongoing basis. If payment was by credit card, then it would be relatively easy to prevent from rejoining any spoilers who get booted, as all of their genuine personal details would be known.

Of course, Konami could take a percentage of the entrance fee to cover their costs - they obviously wouldn't run this for free...in fact, it could be a nice little earner for them.

I think it's an interesting idea to discuss further. Asking people to pay to join in may sound stupid but football is incredibly popular and PES2 alone has already sold millions of copies world-wide. There are potentially thousands of PES players who may well be willing to pay to take part in such a league, particularly if there are prizes at steak.

eg. £40 entrance fee (ie. the typical price of a game) - £20 refunded at end of season, £10 goes to prize pot, £10 payment to Konami to manage everything. If you got 1000 entrants from around the world, that would be £10,000 to Konami to run everything and £10,000 prize money.

At say 16 teams per division (30 matches per season), that would mean about 62 divisions, £160 prize money per division.

As I think about it, there are numerous other complications but they'd all have some sort of solution. It could work, provided people were willing to pay to take part.

 

[g2bam]

You have hit on the alternative that we also considered at the time! Charging a subscription for entry is a very clear and decisive way of putting off the idiots who sign up knowing that by week 3 they will be away in the Carribean for a 3 week holiday etc.

However, one has to consider the logistics, and these are: -

The quickest, safest least time consuming way to gather the fees is by Mastercard or Visa on-line, however, the main problem I considered here was that most of the reasonable players at these games are the 14-18 age group, the most likely ones to pull out are also in the same group, and the least likely ones to have a credit card are the same ones.

That was why in the end we opted for prizes, which by the way I paid out of my own pocket as I wanted to prove to everyone that it could work.

With regard to Konami, well, if they are anything like EA they will NOT get involved. EA are/were a dreadful company to deal with, we took great trouble to highlight our web site and the on-going league to EA UK while it was well in swing and live.

They were impressed etc, made a few nice replies to the emails we sent, but have made absolutely NO attempt to join in, follow up or request that we continue doing these things for their game.

The best I would imagine you could expect from Konami would be prize money or sponsorship, they would expect someone like myself to provide all the site space, admin and general housekeeping.

Actually, that is very easy, its the writing of the dynamic web site and the daily running of the league once it has starrted that is the part I enjoyed.

The finance part is the stumbling block, and any sponsorship, prizes or cash that one could arrange before starting would be the best position to be in.

I am sure we will see some serious on-line PES3 leagues springing up next year, I would also like to think that perhaps I would be involved in at least one of them

 

[arthur]

I suspect the Konami Europe would be equally unreceptive...one multi-national corporation is mych the other.

However, if we somehow managed to contact the KCET team in Tokoyo I would't be surprised that they might take more interest in the idea.

The management aspect of PES is far more comprehensive than FIFA and it's clear that the KCET team care a great deal about their ML and the team management aspect of the game. If they are thinking about on-line play in the future (which surely they must be) then one would hope that they are also contemplating on-line ML and how best to make it work.

Even if they're not, then I guess there's nothing stopping other people setting up their own . Any league can start oiff small but if it works well, then it may well grow into something much bigger.

It''s a fair point about using credit cards and many gamers being too young to own one. However, there are many who are old enough. Did you actually initially put it to the participants in your league that they should pay to take part? And what was their response? Were people willing to trust you not to run off into the sunset with their money?

 

[g2bam]

During our 12 weeks in operation I had occasion to kick about 5 players out for one reason or another, which caused frustration to the remaining players.

After we completed the league, the 16 guys left agreed that if we had made it pay to enter they would have done etc.

In fact, they said I should run it again and charge a £10 refundable fee to protect the league, so it definitely has potential, however is bound to not only exclude the asses, but also the genuine young guys who don't own a credit card.

But as we have already learned from this thread, it is a definite possibility running a league on-line.

A little tweak here and there to the way it will operate and it would be a success.