Champions of Europe Thread [2012-2013]

[Mandieta6]

Yeah I like Luiz too, but I havent been THAT overwhelmed by him this season. He didnt step up when we went through our bad patch. He still makes mistakes, he is still rash, he still gets booked too much. However, I agree he is maturing, he is getting more solid defensively and more disciplined as a player. For a time I thought we would have to retrain him to midfield or lose him, now I agree with you that he could be a key figure in our defense IF we start defending properly.

Great season: Mata, Cech, Cole
Very good season: Azpilicueta, Luiz, Ramires, Ivanovic
Promising season: Oscar, Ba, Hazard, Moses, Bertrand
Slightly disappointing season: Cahill, Mikel, Marin, Romeu (mainly due to injury)
Disappointing season: Torres, Benayoun

I didnt include Terry and Lampard but they were both pretty ok I guess, some important goals from Lampard.

Getting booked too often, sure, although I think it has to do with the whole defense. Yellows generally come when you have to make a rash tackle or stop a counter, which is rarely just one players' fault. It's not that I've been overwhelmed with him, but gradually I have become much more secure with him in the side, to the point that I consider him to be the 2nd most indispensable member of it, because of his contributions in all areas of the game.

I disagree with your ratings, though. Cole has, at most, slightly bettered last season, which was rather poor by his standards. Bertrand has been fine, I suppose you could say promising because he has become a serviceable player. Ba showed a lot of promise, but I'm actually disappointed with his goal tally. That said, I think it's a huge reflection on the fact that what we need is a creator and not a forward. I mean, we need better forwards, but Ba is more than capable of bagging more than the ones he has. I worry that we'll get Falcao or Lewandowski and not address the creation issues and it's just gonna be the same.

My only disappointment with Mikel is that Rafa hasn't trusted him more. I think he is very undervalued and underrated. Cahill was fine, I mean, he's 4th choice. He's our worst defender and it shows on the pitch, but for 4th choice he's good enough, not sure anyone has a better 4th choice than we do, perhaps barring Madrid and Bayern, perhaps.

Yossi should not be playing for us, so I'm not disappointed. I am with Marin though, I really thought there was something there. I-m not blaming him entirely, though, even if he doesn't perform in training it still makes more sense to give him more chances than fielding Yossi again and again.

And yeah, the attacking band trio of Moses, Hazard and Oscar flashed and disappointed at different times. A lot of promise there, good year for them considering it's their first.

 

[Mandieta6]

You guys need to watch more Portuguese League so as not to get your hopes up that much.


I mean, Jupp Heynckes is probably going to win his SECOND CL, and Luiz is one of the best CBs in the world! It's so funny.

I don't know what you're trying to say. I feel like you're just trying to connect any topic to Portugal at this point.

And Sir_Didier_Drogba, I don't think any of those defenders, barring Vertonghen, is even close to DL right now.

 

[Filipower]

Most topics in Football are connected to Portugal at this point.


I'm saying, from a mere Portuguese League point of view, Luiz and Henyckes are shit! That's why it's so funny. I'm actually glad Luiz got out and became pretty good, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying it's funny.

 

[Mandieta6]

Hmm. So, the Portuguese point of view is stupid? It would explain a lot, I have to say.

I'll admit that I dunno much about Portugal or its league, but I'm 99% sure David Luiz would be an indisputable starter in any team in Portugal, including the NT. He's on the verge of beign world-class. Bayern and Barca (the teams that seek out the best ball-playing CBs in the world) have been linked with a move and I'm telling you, he has been the 2nd best player at Chelsea this season. I persopnally think it's criminal that Ferdinand is on the Team of the Year and not him.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Bayern aren't making a move for David Luiz. I'd be fine if they did, but it's never going to happen.

 

[Filipower]

He wouldn't start at Porto, he would maybe start at Benfica but Luisão is the captain so I don't know. I'm not saying he's bad!

You don't need to be a dick. It's not a stupid point of view, it's just the point of view of the beginning of most these players careers in Europe, which means they're not really that good when they play here. I'm just messing with Heynckes because I like busting Bayern's balls, but his work there has been great, although his time at Benfica was incredibly shit for someone who had won the CL with Real.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

I will say that I find it ridiculous that Luiz is a starter for Brazil instead of Dante.

 

[Xaviesta]

Luiz is not so good at defense. He's more DM.

 

[Mandieta6]

I know they aren't, and even if they were, we wouldn't sell. It was just a rumour. But that is my point, Shifty is an intelligent Bayern supporter and he would welcome DL to his team.

I'm not being a dick, your argument just doesn't make sense. Of course players improve once they leave Portugal. Portugal, whether you like it or not, is a feeder leauge for the top clubs. Players establish themselves at Porto and then move on to better teams. Not all of them will improve, but those who are good will.

You're saying that David Luiz would not be a starter if he were competing with Otamendi, Rolando, Maicon and Mangala? The David Luiz who was a starter for Benfica 3 years ago (3 years in which he has improved constantly) and won the Player of the Year award while there, despite being a defender? That David Luiz, who is now much, much better than he was back then, wouldn't start for Porto and might not for Benfica? The David Luiz who is currently keeping Dante out of the NT? Are you being facetious?

EDIT: I'd say Dante should be starter at the NT, too. But they offer different profiles and I can understand that David Luiz starts if Brazil don't play with creators in deep midfield positions. It also makes sense becuase David Luiz is not THAT far off Dante and has more years in him and could become Brazil captain. You lose some ability now for the sake of having more stability later.

EDIT 2: David Luiz is a great defender and that is the exact conception of him that makes him so underrated. He will have a tough time shaking that 'playstation' image, but he will, I would bet my beautiful, circumcised cock on it.

 

[Filipower]

You didn't get it at all.


And they don't move on to better clubs, they move on to better leagues. Chelsea, "whether you like it or not", are not better than Porto or Benfica.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Chelsea is better than Benfica. Benfica hasn't won a CL in like 50 years.

 

[Mandieta6]

Probably not this year, although we'll see against Benfica. We beat them last year and we were awful last year. I'm not certain that Chelsea are better than Porto, but I'm just as uncertain that Porto are better than Chelsea.

Please explain what I've missed because when I scroll up I still see you saying that David Luiz wouldn't start at Porto.

 

[Filipower]

You didn't get what I was trying to say about my view on the quality of these players.

The Luiz not starting part you got, but you just don't agree. I maintain it. Starting for a team isn't just about pound-for-pound quality, if not the likes of Pedro would have no chance at a club like Barça.

 

[Mandieta6]

Yes, but when a player is that good, at least in comparison with his teammates, you make room for him. DL does not fulfill a special function like Pedro, he's just an excellent defender with fantastic ball-playing skills. Both Shifty and Arnau have said that they would welcome DL at their clubs (perhaps not as starters but I would argue they would be). With that in mind, I find it very surprising that you would rather have those Porto players rather than DL, despite all the points I've made (Player of the Year in your own league when he was still considered raw, for instance).

And I asked you to tell me what it is I missed, please repeat your point, maybe re-word it so I can understand.

 

[Mus]

I'd have him over Bonucci

 

[ShiftyPowers]

I don't think he's better than Badstuber, and his mistakes are even more frequent than Boateng's, but I'd certainly take him over van Buyten.

 

[Arnau]

David Luiz is an incredible talent with conditions to be the best.

Technical and physical prodigy, good in the air, unbeatable in 1-on-1 and fast, his only weakness is a poor tactical culture leading to a poor decision making.


EDIT: Under Mourinho Luiz will become one of best around because in his methodology they train experiencing real game situations, Luiz will learn when and where to press, when to drive with the ball and why, which are the best options to pass, etc...

 

[chygry]

If you win the Europa League, will the next season's chelsea thread stay under the champions of europe name?

 

[Zakov]

Champions of Europa would sound more appropriate if we win.

 

[chygry]

Yeah most likely, you're probably going to win it, at least it's some kind of a consolation prize for you. And no team has ever won CL, dropped out and then won UEFA Cup/Europe league like that.