Soccer Gaming Forums
Registration is free! Calendar Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Rules User CP Tools Home


Go Back   Soccer Gaming Forums | FIFA Forums, FIFA Mods, Futball > FIFA Series > FIFA 15 Forum > FIFA 15 Editing Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-07-2015, 10:12:PM   #1
mrliioadin
Senior Squad
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 2,349
mrliioadin is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to mrliioadin
Toward A Uniform (Quantitative) Worldwide Rating System: A Plea To The Community

Toward a uniform (quantitative) worldwide rating system: A plea to the community to develop standards

At present, player ability ratings are highly subjective and highly variable. Each individual creator selects their preferred values while denigrating all other's ratings. These ratings are heavily painted by their own biases and preferences. But, the process of assigning a value to a player is and should be as statistical problem. I want to outline a possible statistical approach, define some of the problems with this approach, clarify methods for evaluating the effectiveness of a rating system, and encourage disagreement about specific facets of the approach. Much of my professional training is in applied statistical techniques for evaluating performance and testing hypotheses about behavioral health. I hope to apply some of this in the current endeavor. That is not an argument from authority, however. If you have specific knowledge or even a hunch that there may be a problem with a given decision or approach, voice it. Even if we ultimately disagree, it is better to explore alternatives than to assume they are incorrect at the onset. I'm not a mathematician. If you spot something wrong with the math. Point it out and propose a fix.

What would a good rating system do?

You cannot expect a good approach to accurately identify all players, nor indeed all attributes for a specific player. A statistical approach is a heuristic. It is not a gospel. That means that you must expect good statistical approaches to be wrong in isolated situations. They may even be wrong a lot. The point is for the systems to be right more often than they are wrong and to be close enough to believable values for most players that fixing the other values doesn't take the community much time.

A good approach will develop a guide that roughly works for most players in the world using as little information as possible (occam's razor). The values which it derives should be mostly believable within a margin of error. If we're talking about less than about 5 Overall points, I think we're splitting hairs.

A good approach needs to be pliable. That means that others can make subtle changes and test the impact of those changes quantitatively and subjectively.

A good approach should mirror reality to an extent. But, do not be fooled into believing that it will be perfect.

A good approach will prioritize data that is available for most of the world's teams, leagues, and national teams rather than opting for data available only for the elite clubs.

What is a valid way to critique a good rating system?

It is not valid to pick a single player or a set of single players and ridicule the system for not accurately predicting their breakout performance. For instance, the system I will propose would have undervalued a player like Joevin Jones by quite a lot. It also would value someone like Harry Kane very little in a relative sense. These individual's are exceptions. We talk about them and they stand out in our mind because they are so unique. A good system may accurately predict most players in a given league, but it may miss a few hidden gems.

Most of the professional systems have this problem. It is the purview of many scouting departments for professional clubs and independent firms to predict gems in an otherwise average pool. We can't expect to be better at this than they are. And, they miss often.

A statistical rating system will have parameters and sets of decisions. A parameter is like a variable (often entered into an equation) whose value one hopes to either set or estimate. If a parameter is entered into the system, it is valid to critique it's inclusion or estimated value. It is also valid to critique the behavior of that parameter. For instance, say that a we estimate a population mean is x. If you find that when we apply x to a team in the game they tend to dramatically and consistently over-perform, we need to reevaluate that parameter estimate. Perhaps our estimate for x is too high. Perhaps that parameter shouldn't be included in the way we include it. Perhaps it should be moderated (a multiplicative relationship) by another parameter.

Decisions should also be critiqued. Most statistical systems have arbitrary or biased decisions built into them. This one is no different. An eventual goal is to reduce those or at least reduce the impact of them. If a decision is made and is found to have little basis or is dramatically and consistently impacting the behavior of certain teams and/or players, that decision should be criticized and alternatives should be explored.

The take home message for critiquing a statistical system is that your gut matters, but evidence matters more. Instead of stating your opinion that a given team, league or player is overrated or underrated, run a simulation in-game and test whether it supports your position.

Also remember that this is a world-wide system, not an elite western european system. I expect it to be off when it comes to some of the elite leagues and players. But these have been extensively scouted by many football experts. The values are at least fairly representative of most of the community's beliefs about a player's value. Extensive scouting can trump mathematical heuristics. This is a system for the teams, leagues and players that EA didn't include (though it may work well for some of the one's that it did include).

A baseline proposal

This is a system I have been developing and feel comfortable releasing with the caveat that it is not perfect, is not finished, and is deserving of specific critiques and readjustments. When critiquing, be specific about your concerns, provide evidence, discuss mathematical alternatives.

The overall approach

In previous iterations I attempted to base league ratings on performance in intercontinental club competitions. A good system needs to find some common way of measuring performance relative to all other countries. The problem, however, is that very few matches are played in these competitions and fewer matches means greater uncertainty. When using this approach, leagues and teams which are well thought of globally and which consistently produce players which perform well on the international level, would be so lowly rated that a massive disagreement occurred when trying to apply these players to national teams. One would expect that the best domestic players from a national team should be filling out a national team roster. The best foreign players picked up by better foreign leagues would usually constitute most of the starters and best players on a national team roster. The wide disagreement was just unacceptable.

What uniform measure can be used as a global basis for comparison?

Instead of basing comparisons on international cup competitions, I instead base them on Elo Rankings of National Teams. Every team is rated by the elo system. It is better accepted than the FIFA system. I doubt it is as good as the fivethirtyeight system, but they don't publish their full list. It's the best we have. That does not mean that it is perfect or even ideal. It's just the best we have.

Levels of analysis

The process I use drills down to a player value for a specific player in a club from a league in a country with a national team of a given Elo rank. That means the levels of analysis proceed as follows:

National Team Best Player (assuming no significant outliers or foreign players). If foreign players are in the national team, their value is either estimated by that league's parameter estimates or by EA's scouts/process.

League best player (assuming no significant outliers)

Club team best player (assuming no significant outliers)

individual overall value estimate (assuming he/she is not an outlier).

National Team Best Player

When estimating the national team best player, the following parameters are used:

let y-hat will denote the outcome value for the best player on the national team (assuming they aren't a superstar that has been independently professionally scouted and shown to be an outlier... e.g., Messi, Ronaldo).

x = the nation's Elo ranking
a = first polynomial term
f = second polynomial term
g = third polynomial term
b = Polynomial y-intercept

I use a polynomial to describe national team best player abilities. As with most equations, it is meant to describe most players, not outliers. When a player is already in the FIFA game, I defer to EA trusting that they scouted or have a larger more elaborate system. I could be wrong about that.

The parameter values in this equation can and should be tested and critiqued (but you should suggest an alternative value or equation instead of only criticizing).

let:

a=0.000005
f=0.0011
g=0.3343

y-hat = (a*x^3)-(f*x^2)-(g*x)+b
y-hat = (0.000005*x^3)-(0.0011*x^2)-(0.3343*x)+83

League best player

Now, let's assume that the best domestic player is the best domestic player on the national team (not a big leap). Again, ignoring foreign players, let the value obtained above for y-hat also represent the best player in a domestic league.

y-hat = the best player in a league = international best domestic player

Let us also suggest that soccer talent within a country can be understood via a normal distribution. Apply this normal distribution to the entire population, not just professionals or professionals in the first division. Now, let us say that the best player from a given league is approximately q standard deviations above the mean.

Use q to represent the exact number of standard deviations above the mean a best player is.

Therefore y-hat should also equal q*σ where:

σ = standard deviation of the population of soccer players in a given country
q = The standard deviations above the mean of best player in a league.
μ = population mean. Can be attained by taking (y-hat)-q*σ

In my system I assume (all assumptions can be challenged):
σ = 5
q = 3

Estimating best players on other teams

For a given league select the largest number of points available in the league table for a specific evaluation period. Call this t. Remember that the fewer the number of observations, the more uncertain your estimates will be. If the team only played 6 matches, there is a high degree of uncertainty about their relative ability. If they have played 46 matches, you can better estimate their relative ability.

t = highest number of points attained in league table
u = a specific team's number of points attained in league table during the same evaluation period.
v-hat = a given team's best player's z-score

v-hat = q-((t-u)*.01)

I have played with alternative calculations for v-hat such as using a log of the (t-u) term, but I am concerned that the drop off in talent is far too steep from the best team to the next few. It gives a huge advantage for the team at the top of the table. You can see an example of what I mean in the TT Pro League and Jamaican Red Stripe Leagues that I released (v0.1).

EDIT--- The calculation for v-hat is proving especially difficult. When using a logarithmic relationship with (t-u), there are very few top notch players in the league. Maybe that is okay, but it felt like there were perhaps too few (Subjective). Using the calculation above (and included in the released files, I think there is almost no separation between the best teams in the league and the worst. The old calculation was:

v-hat = 3-(log((t+1)-u)). I think I may revert to that calculation.

Getting an individual player's rating

The final step is to attain a value for an individual player. To do this, put the players in order of best to worst (at least as far as you can tell based on the data you have available). You may not know exactly which player is 7th versus 8th for example, but, you should be able to get enough information to take an educated guess.

r = player rank in squad.
z = z-score for player in population
o-hat = estimated Overall value for the player

z = (v-hat)-(log(r))

I tried some other formula's for z but each had fundamental flaws. One thing to avoid here is using another arbitrarily selected constant. We want to minimize how many constants we're adding.


o-hat = z*σ+μ

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So there is a preliminary system for the community to play with. It is statistical. It is uniform. And I have included several specific points where the system can be modified and debated. I encourage using simulations in game to drive your decisions about modifications to different parameters. Feel free to discuss, but make sure this is a positive experience for all.

Goals moving forward should be fewer arbitrarily selected values and more calculated values as well as fewer predictors if possible. Also, I haven't figured out a quantitative way to drop down to second division teams, yet. I'm not sure if they should simply start at a z-score of something like 10% above the lowest in the table above. This is another good point for the community to discuss.

Do not try to chase outliers. It is a waste of our time. No one has been effective at identifying extreme outliers.

Remember, nothing is perfect. We're not aiming for perfect. We're aiming for a decent standardized heuristic. Once this system spits out values for every player on the planet, you can change the 5-10 values you want to change by hand.

Here is a worksheet which you can use to calculate one player (first sheet) or an array of players (second sheet) where you can get some estimated values and begin to play with the system.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Here is a downloadable version which you can use to modify the formula's, change certain parameter values and complete offline calculations:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7r...ew?usp=sharing

Enjoy!

Last edited by mrliioadin; 21-07-2015 at 02:59:AM. Reason: v-hat calculations were proving to be problematic. Alternative discussed herein.
mrliioadin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 10:10:AM   #2
bangus
Starting XI
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,405
bangus is just really nicebangus is just really nicebangus is just really nicebangus is just really nicebangus is just really nice
Heh. Every other year someone comes up with one of these threads. Months later it's buried several pages deep beneath all the graphics improvement and "How do I create a tattoo?" threads. Sad but true.

Creating a "ratings" system for FIFA... FIFA doesn't have ratings, it has values that are used to boost a player's overall so that Messi "looks like" he's a 95 player versus some third-tier schmoe who's rated 57. But it makes zero difference to the gameplay. This isn't quantum physics and a math degree isn't required to figure out the quantitative or qualitative nuances of FIFA player ratings. Here, everything one needs to understand: CPU needs goal = players suddenly all turn into Messi.

So then what does it really matter what players are rated?

FIFA is a toy. Play it and have fun with it. And actually, the majority of people around here who treat it like The Sims - assigning the latest kits, shoes, hairdos and other fashion items - have it about right. It's a pretty dress-up game that also sort of and sometimes plays like football.

No man, we don't need 100 new leagues with 50,000 more players who play the same as the 20,000 players already in the game. That's just The Sims all over again: looks cool, looks realistic, but means nothing and offers no improvement gameplay-wise.

Re-coding the game engine isn't going to happen. Therefore the one option is to overhaul the player ratings system so that it (properly) interacts with the game engine in such a way as to create something resembling a football simulation. A few here have already been working on that over the past several years, with some good results.

Anyway, do you want a ratings system that looks good but means very little? Or a ratings system that looks a bit different than we’re all used to, but that offers actual gameplay improvements? Those are the two choices.

Last edited by bangus; 21-07-2015 at 12:56:PM.
bangus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 01:58:PM   #3
mrliioadin
Senior Squad
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 2,349
mrliioadin is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to mrliioadin
Quote:
Originally Posted by bangus View Post
Heh. Every other year someone comes up with one of these threads. Months later it's buried several pages deep beneath all the graphics improvement and "How do I create a tattoo?" threads. Sad but true.

Creating a "ratings" system for FIFA... FIFA doesn't have ratings, it has values that are used to boost a player's overall so that Messi "looks like" he's a 95 player versus some third-tier schmoe who's rated 57. But it makes zero difference to the gameplay. This isn't quantum physics and a math degree isn't required to figure out the quantitative or qualitative nuances of FIFA player ratings. Here, everything one needs to understand: CPU needs goal = players suddenly all turn into Messi.

So then what does it really matter what players are rated?

FIFA is a toy. Play it and have fun with it. And actually, the majority of people around here who treat it like The Sims - assigning the latest kits, shoes, hairdos and other fashion items - have it about right. It's a pretty dress-up game that also sort of and sometimes plays like football.

No man, we don't need 100 new leagues with 50,000 more players who play the same as the 20,000 players already in the game. That's just The Sims all over again: looks cool, looks realistic, but means nothing and offers no improvement gameplay-wise.

Re-coding the game engine isn't going to happen. Therefore the one option is to overhaul the player ratings system so that it (properly) interacts with the game engine in such a way as to create something resembling a football simulation. A few here have already been working on that over the past several years, with some good results.

Anyway, do you want a ratings system that looks good but means very little? Or a ratings system that looks a bit different than we’re all used to, but that offers actual gameplay improvements? Those are the two choices.
This is fun. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean others don't. And I didn't say everyone should make everyone of these players. It's a guide for consistency among patches. Link me one other thread like this.

So you have no mathematical argument against using this. Your argument is... I don't feel like it. Helpful. Thanks!
mrliioadin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 02:20:PM   #4
bangus
Starting XI
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,405
bangus is just really nicebangus is just really nicebangus is just really nicebangus is just really nicebangus is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrliioadin View Post
So you have no mathematical argument against using this.
Mathematical argument? That's my point. It doesn't require a doctorate and a 10,000 word thesis to figure out how to rate players according to the way EA does it:

Messi 99
Ronaldo 98
Joe Schmoe 57

But I understand, you just want to create dozens of leagues with 1000s of players ala EA, and not have to think too deeply about gameplay. So quantitative rather than qualitative, got it.
bangus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 02:25:PM   #5
mrliioadin
Senior Squad
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 2,349
mrliioadin is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to mrliioadin
Quote:
Originally Posted by bangus View Post
Mathematical argument? That's my point. It doesn't require a doctorate and a 10,000 word thesis to figure out how to rate players according to the way EA does it:

Messi 99
Ronaldo 98
Joe Schmoe 57

But I understand, you just want to create dozens of leagues with 1000s of players ala EA, and not have to think too deeply about gameplay. So quantitative rather than qualitative, got it.
You clearly didn't read the system. I am not trying to predict what ea does. I'm trying to calculate what they didn't. And I spoke about nine times in the original post about outliers. Try again. Maybe read first this time.

And again, nothing about this is about creating many new leagues. You can if you want. Or you can create one. Or you can just evaluate roughly how good a team might be in a given competition. This works outside of FIFA15 as well as a means for calculating expected levels of talent from a given pool of players. It just happens to be scaled for FIFA use too.

Also, I asked for a link to another system like this.

New mathematical formula based on Bangus' feedback.

o-hat = whatever bangus thinks because math are stoopid.

Last edited by mrliioadin; 21-07-2015 at 02:53:PM.
mrliioadin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 07:43:PM   #6
ouma
Youth Team
 
ouma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Nairobi, Kenya
Posts: 340
ouma is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to ouma
Tone down guys...it's not always that serious. Let everyone create whatever he likes..so long as there's someone who find it worth downloading.
__________________
SUPA FUTAA!!! NI YETU!!!
ouma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 08:17:PM   #7
mrliioadin
Senior Squad
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 2,349
mrliioadin is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to mrliioadin
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouma View Post
Tone down guys...it's not always that serious. Let everyone create whatever he likes..so long as there's someone who find it worth downloading.
It's just another example of the rigid negativity that runs rampant on these forums. Nearly any time someone posts asking for help or expressing an idea they are shot down with bloviated reasoning. It's exhausting. In this case, it was so blatantly obvious that the aggressor hadn't even bothered to read the actual post it was simply ridiculous.
mrliioadin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 11:30:PM   #8
klear
Youth Team
 
klear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England.
Posts: 425
klear is on a distinguished road
You've clearly spent a lot of time devising this formula so it seems like it could be quite a steadfast system.

I'd love nothing more than for FIFA patch makers to start using an accepted and universal ratings calculator such as this. It would even the playing field and allow users to instantly load up a career after installing a patch without feeling the need to open up CM to tweak stats.

Nothing worse when you realise that the Estonian Meistriliga that you've just installed contains players comparable to the Bundesliga.
klear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 11:35:PM   #9
mrliioadin
Senior Squad
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 2,349
mrliioadin is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to mrliioadin
Quote:
Originally Posted by klear View Post
You've clearly spent a lot of time devising this formula so it seems like it could be quite a steadfast system.

I'd love nothing more than for FIFA patch makers to start using an accepted and universal ratings calculator such as this. It would even the playing field and allow users to instantly load up a career after installing a patch without feeling the need to open up CM to tweak stats.

Nothing worse when you realise that the Estonian Meistriliga that you've just installed contains players comparable to the Bundesliga.
Thanks for the support! I do think it will continue to need work. One aspect I battle with is how to treat the very very very poor teams. The rag-tag amateurs in some island in the South Pacific or Caribbean. I found that if I use the entire scale (all the way down to overall values of about 1, the results are much more realistic in simulations.

People are often shocked when they see a player with an overall value of 2, though. There are also some gameplay problems below about 20. Lots of injuries occur. Players just have abysmal stamina. This could be countered by simply raising all stamina values by about 20 points, but it would impact some overall ratings.
mrliioadin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2015, 10:46:PM   #10
mrliioadin
Senior Squad
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 2,349
mrliioadin is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to mrliioadin
I'm playing with a little tweak to this system because of something that came up with the Cote d'Iviore league. Obviously their national team is very very good. But almost none of their national team players play in the domestic league. So using the national team elo rank at face value is necessarily going to overestimate the strength of the club teams. I'm playing with the idea of applying an adjustment to the estimated mean (μ) that is something like this:

p = approximate proportion of players on the national team that come from the domestic league (using the latest roster call-ups, for example).

Remember that a proportion is on a scale from 0-1 whereas a percentage is on a scale from 0-100.

The calculation is made up of a few parts.

(μ*(μ*p)) scales with the proportion of players. But, it is in the opposite of the preferred direction. So we subtract it from μ to flip the relationship.

μ-(μ*(μ*p))

Then we divide that by 10 to minimize the impact. Before, it was dramatically changing the μ. This helps temper that particular behavior.

(μ-(μ*(μ*p)))/10 : this term is the amount that μ will be adjusted by.

So the final adjustment is this:

adjusted μ = μ-(μ-(μ*(μ*p)))/10

It's pretty complicated and should probably be temporary until we come up with something better.

One benefit to this approach is that when μ is low, this calculation has almost no effect. It basically means that it assumes that even if most of your players are playing abroad, it's clearly not helping your national team very much. Therefore, we can assume that μ is a fairly accurate assessment of the country's ability.

Last edited by mrliioadin; 22-07-2015 at 11:21:PM.
mrliioadin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 02:24:AM   #11
regularcat
Manager
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,689
regularcat is a jewel in the roughregularcat is a jewel in the roughregularcat is a jewel in the rough
What Bangus was trying to say was that regardless of how you universally modify attributes or whichever system your devise will not change the way the game plays.

The attributes do nothing other than look like they stand for something.

It used to be for example short passing attribute the higher the rating the more the player would pass.

If you took Messi and set his passing to 20 and his dribbling to 99 all he would do was run around never passing the ball.

EA has reduced that down over the years to were it basically does nothing.

What you will do in the end will only result in a cosmetic look and nothing else, sad but true.

It is your game and your world, have at it.

As far as your post, your math and how you came about your plan is just too much for me to read right now.
__________________
regularcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 03:05:AM   #12
mrliioadin
Senior Squad
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 2,349
mrliioadin is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to mrliioadin
Quote:
Originally Posted by regularcat View Post
What Bangus was trying to say was that regardless of how you universally modify attributes or whichever system your devise will not change the way the game plays.

The attributes do nothing other than look like they stand for something.

It used to be for example short passing attribute the higher the rating the more the player would pass.

If you took Messi and set his passing to 20 and his dribbling to 99 all he would do was run around never passing the ball.

EA has reduced that down over the years to were it basically does nothing.

What you will do in the end will only result in a cosmetic look and nothing else, sad but true.

It is your game and your world, have at it.

As far as your post, your math and how you came about your plan is just too much for me to read right now.
I disagree. I've done extensive testing for the national team's project and found sizable differences. I think the ratings mean more now than they used to. In past editions, I would agree. In this edition I don't.

But, two additional things. The OVR values definitely do impact how the simulations proceed. If you overrate certain teams/players, you will see them winning simulated matches. No one wants a team from Finland to be their opponent in a Champions League Semifinal.

Lastly, in manager mode, the overall predicts who gets picked up by which teams. If you overrate players (as most users tend to do), suddenly English Championship teams are overrun with players from lower leagues that have no business in that league.

Keep in mind when evaluating how much the OVR matters that not all settings are equal. The game behaves very differently depending on how you use your sliders and difficulty settings. I suspect that one reason we perceive little difference is because of the ways they coded the world class and legendary difficulty levels (which I'm guessing you mostly use). I found the gameplay far more believable if you drop it down to professional then tune up the CPU's sliders.

Does it matter? Absolutely yes. Does it make all of the difference in the world, of course not. But it will, at the very least, make transfers dramatically more believable.
mrliioadin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2015, 03:11:AM   #13
mrliioadin
Senior Squad
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wilmington
Posts: 2,349
mrliioadin is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to mrliioadin
Also, keep in mind that I don't believe any patch maker has created a league where players have an average overall value of, say, 30. 20. They are almost always in the 50s at minimum. We're using half of the scale! Of course the ability is going to look very similar. This means that the worst teams in the game are always about the quality of Football League 2 team. These teams, in reality, consistently perform well against premier league squads. The premier league teams tend to win. But, often these matches are quite tight.

We're treating the game like everyone in the world is that good. And we're getting similar results.

We have to stretch these overalls out. Create more variance and you'll notice more differences.
mrliioadin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





































All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:24:PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.