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Old 23-07-2015, 10:23:AM   #14
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Originally Posted by mrliioadin View Post
Also, keep in mind that I don't believe any patch maker has created a league where players have an average overall value of, say, 30. 20. They are almost always in the 50s at minimum. We're using half of the scale!
I'm impressed, not many see or understand that. That's what I was trying to say in my own cranky way. The best gameplay results I've had with FIFA have always come about after lowing player ratings way down. Generally speaking, 90% of the players in FIFA are rated 50-99 in most categories. It should be the exact opposite: 90% of players should be rated 1-50.

The thing that needs to be understood is that the game engine interacts differently with different ratings. Take speed and agility. The #1 issue most people have with FIFA is that the pace is too fast. But 99 speed for some players is actually fine and even realistic. The real problem is that too many players are too agile, and 99 agility for any player is completely unrealistic. It's ridiculous and farcical. No player in the world is as agile as a 99-agility player in FIFA.

It is possible to apply realistic ratings to players AND improve the gameplay. But what's required is an entirely separate rating system for each individual rating, depending on how that specific rating interacts with the game engine.

With speed, 1-99 works well, although anything below 50 or so can create other issues (trot animation).
With agility, there are a couple of options as I see it:
1. Rate the top 100(?) players in the world 50-99. Rate everyone else 1-49, with maybe 90% of those players rated 1-10.
2. Max out agility so that every player in the game is rated 1-49, or 1-69, or...?

regularcat is also correct, and I said it as well: there are times when the boost coding effect overwrites player ratings, slider settings, etc. In that regard FIFA 15 is no better than past versions of the game. I personally developed my ratings system to specifically combat the boost coding and that's all I care about. Lowering agility into the single digits is one way to help eliminate the boosts. And you're right, once ratings are lowered like that, the gameplay differences and improvements are noticeable.

Last edited by bangus; 23-07-2015 at 11:47:AM.
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Old 23-07-2015, 02:46:PM   #15
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Originally Posted by bangus View Post
I'm impressed, not many see or understand that. That's what I was trying to say in my own cranky way. The best gameplay results I've had with FIFA have always come about after lowing player ratings way down. Generally speaking, 90% of the players in FIFA are rated 50-99 in most categories. It should be the exact opposite: 90% of players should be rated 1-50.

The thing that needs to be understood is that the game engine interacts differently with different ratings. Take speed and agility. The #1 issue most people have with FIFA is that the pace is too fast. But 99 speed for some players is actually fine and even realistic. The real problem is that too many players are too agile, and 99 agility for any player is completely unrealistic. It's ridiculous and farcical. No player in the world is as agile as a 99-agility player in FIFA.

It is possible to apply realistic ratings to players AND improve the gameplay. But what's required is an entirely separate rating system for each individual rating, depending on how that specific rating interacts with the game engine.

With speed, 1-99 works well, although anything below 50 or so can create other issues (trot animation).
With agility, there are a couple of options as I see it:
1. Rate the top 100(?) players in the world 50-99. Rate everyone else 1-49, with maybe 90% of those players rated 1-10.
2. Max out agility so that every player in the game is rated 1-49, or 1-69, or...?

regularcat is also correct, and I said it as well: there are times when the boost coding effect overwrites player ratings, slider settings, etc. In that regard FIFA 15 is no better than past versions of the game. I personally developed my ratings system to specifically combat the boost coding and that's all I care about. Lowering agility into the single digits is one way to help eliminate the boosts. And you're right, once ratings are lowered like that, the gameplay differences and improvements are noticeable.
So this is exactly what a ratings system like this can accomplish. No, the OVR values aren't the be all/end all. But, it's a starting point. A good rating system like this could be included in CM15 or my own RM15 and automatically take things like this into account.

For instance, player potential should depend on player age and should be asymptotic to the player's overall value. If we just develop that formula, we can make the computer do that for us and remove loads of additional bias.

As for the percentage of players that should be rating 1-50, that is exactly the kind of debate we should have about a rating system like this. That is one of the things that is determined by using the normal distribution as the basis for all ratings. In my case, I chose to generate formulas which use half a normal distribution because it behaves exactly like you're describing. Within a given league, there are very few players at the very top end. There are tons of players who are closer to a much lower mean.



Everything you're describing can be approximated mathematically. Additionally, if you dislike something about the way that my system works, it is simple to apply your own tweaks and fixes to it to account for things I didn't think of.

This is a starting point. Now let's examine where and how it specifically goes wrong (because it will, necessarily) and start to figure out how to quantify what it is doing wrong (because we always can).
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Old 24-07-2015, 01:02:AM   #16
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What I had done for my AI patch for FIFA 11 was reduce all attributes across the board between 50 and 1.

Messi was the highest and many were 8 and below overall.

You want to test something test this I have and it is the best the game will ever be.

Allow no overall higher than 20 and play a few matches, mind blowing to say the least.

I would take the players table and break it down by position because overall are calculated differently for all positions.

Then I would reduce by a percentage all attributes skill related and get what I wanted and the outcome was always incredible paired with my ini file.

Unfortunately not many members could see past the overalls to give it a shot, I only play tournament and kick off modes so I never had to
worry about player growth destroying my edits.
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Old 24-07-2015, 01:16:AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regularcat View Post
What I had done for my AI patch for FIFA 11 was reduce all attributes across the board between 50 and 1.

Messi was the highest and many were 8 and below overall.

You want to test something test this I have and it is the best the game will ever be.

Allow no overall higher than 20 and play a few matches, mind blowing to say the least.

I would take the players table and break it down by position because overall are calculated differently for all positions.

Then I would reduce by a percentage all attributes skill related and get what I wanted and the outcome was always incredible paired with my ini file.

Unfortunately not many members could see past the overalls to give it a shot, I only play tournament and kick off modes so I never had to
worry about player growth destroying my edits.
That's actually a really clever idea. I do wonder, though, if you tried this with 15? The lower ends of the spectrum act dramatically differently now than in 11. Mostly around stamina issues and injuries. But, I think I perceive some differences in missed touches and sprint speed as well as AI marking.

The simulations are much better now than in 11 as well.
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Old 24-07-2015, 01:32:AM   #18
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Originally Posted by mrliioadin View Post
That's actually a really clever idea. I do wonder, though, if you tried this with 15? The lower ends of the spectrum act dramatically differently now than in 11. Mostly around stamina issues and injuries. But, I think I perceive some differences in missed touches and sprint speed as well as AI marking.

The simulations are much better now than in 11 as well.
I have not tried it yet, I have a huge players table and don't have the time to
break it down and edit everything.
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Old 24-07-2015, 01:37:AM   #19
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I have not tried it yet, I have a huge players table and don't have the time to
break it down and edit everything.
If you get a chance sometime, import a couple of the shite national teams from my patch. Northern Mariana islands and the like. Throw like 6 in a custom tournament and try playing with a great team like Brazil, a mediocre one like Slovenia, and then something like Nepal. It's quite a different experience. Not nearly different enough in my opinion, but better than in the past.
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Old 24-07-2015, 01:43:AM   #20
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If I have time this weekend I'll do what I did for 11 and let you test it.
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Old 24-07-2015, 01:44:AM   #21
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If I have time this weekend I'll do what I did for 11 and let you test it.
Hah, well unfortunately I won't have much time starting this weekend. But, most of the teams in my database have overall values down in the 30s.
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Old 24-07-2015, 10:13:AM   #22
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Hah, well unfortunately I won't have much time starting this weekend. But, most of the teams in my database have overall values down in the 30s.
Team overalls don't tell us much, it has much more to do with individual positional overalls. Every specific position requires a different set of min-max values, that's the key. You can lower a FW's overall rating into the 20s even while assigning him 99 in finishing and shot power, and he's still good for scoring goals at least. But the only way to create a 20-rated CB is to lower his defensive values way down, at which point he becomes entirely useless. General ballpark numbers:

Effective FWs can be 20-99.
CBs can be 40-99. Any lower than 40 and they're pylons.
GKs can be 60-99. Any lower than 60 and they can't save a beachball.

That sort of thing.

Many positional players in my db are rated 30s and 40s and that works for me. But it all depends on what you want to accomplish with this project, and your original ideas about a viable ratings system are no doubt more realistic. Few people here will play FIFA with players rated 30s and 40s, that's the reality. They want to see their favorite players and teams rated 60s to 90s.

Last edited by bangus; 24-07-2015 at 01:02:PM.
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Old 24-07-2015, 03:00:PM   #23
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Originally Posted by bangus View Post
Team overalls don't tell us much, it has much more to do with individual positional overalls. Every specific position requires a different set of min-max values, that's the key. You can lower a FW's overall rating into the 20s even while assigning him 99 in finishing and shot power, and he's still good for scoring goals at least. But the only way to create a 20-rated CB is to lower his defensive values way down, at which point he becomes entirely useless. General ballpark numbers:

Effective FWs can be 20-99.
CBs can be 40-99. Any lower than 40 and they're pylons.
GKs can be 60-99. Any lower than 60 and they can't save a beachball.

That sort of thing.

Many positional players in my db are rated 30s and 40s and that works for me. But it all depends on what you want to accomplish with this project, and your original ideas about a viable ratings system are no doubt more realistic. Few people here will play FIFA with players rated 30s and 40s, that's the reality. They want to see their favorite players and teams rated 60s to 90s.
I have no illusion that everyone will adopt and apply this. I do, however, think that certain patch makers could and should at least consult it. At the very least, it's a quantitative way to address large discrepancies.

I think you're thinking that the equation is saying 'this player should be exactly this good and everyone should conform to that value.' I don't think that's the right way to do this. I think the right way to do this would be to consult this first, then apply your own tweaks according to your own specific knowledge.

So, if a patch maker puts out a patch that has EPL quality players coming from Estonia or something, you can start to adjust or suggest an adjustment.

It's not, John Blowhard IV should be a 45 and no one should think anything different. It's, John Blowhard IV is overrated according to the quantitative system. And that degree of overrating is approximately 30 points.

I think experienced people will always have their own opinions about other details. That's fine. I do urge you to try to quantify those differences, however. In that way, the quantitative system I developed gets you close, the quantitative adjustments proposed by others can then be applied for greater realism.

If you just have vague notions of rules or procedures that work for you, no one else can replicate that. It will, forever, live in your head. However, if you try to quantify those differences, others can try to apply your changes and see for themselves if your approach is one they would like to adopt.

None of that is criticism. It's an urge to try to quantify what you're saying so that the community can either decide to adopt or reject your approach or tweak.
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Old 24-07-2015, 04:51:PM   #24
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None of that is criticism. It's an urge to try to quantify what you're saying so that the community can either decide to adopt or reject your approach or tweak.
I'm not discussing this for the purpose of convincing anyone or having people adopt my suggestions. All I'm doing is sharing what I've done every year for the past four years. When the game first comes out, I spend 15-20 minutes re-rating the players by applying my own set of global edits. After that I'm good to go for the football season; I never update my rosters or add new leagues, so I don't have to worry about continually fiddling with my db and edits.

What I'm pointing out is that there are really two ways one can go about creating a ratings system. 99% of the people here would only be interested in rating system similar to the one EA uses:
1. Most players rated 50-99.
2. The higher the overall rating, the better the player (supposedly).

The other option is to come up with a system that focuses specifically on improving the gameplay, without worrying about what overall ratings look like. Modders like regularcat, Fidel and AndreaPirlo have released gameplay mods that utilize this approach, but without any real success. People try it but don't like the lower ratings; they can't wrap their head around the concept that to improve the gameplay you have to make certain ratings concessions.

That's all I've been trying to explain, nothing more.
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Old 24-07-2015, 05:14:PM   #25
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Originally Posted by bangus View Post
I'm not discussing this for the purpose of convincing anyone or having people adopt my suggestions. All I'm doing is sharing what I've done every year for the past four years. When the game first comes out, I spend 15-20 minutes re-rating the players by applying my own set of global edits. After that I'm good to go for the football season; I never update my rosters or add new leagues, so I don't have to worry about continually fiddling with my db and edits.

What I'm pointing out is that there are really two ways one can go about creating a ratings system. 99% of the people here would only be interested in rating system similar to the one EA uses:
1. Most players rated 50-99.
2. The higher the overall rating, the better the player (supposedly).

The other option is to come up with a system that focuses specifically on improving the gameplay, without worrying about what overall ratings look like. Modders like regularcat, Fidel and AndreaPirlo have released gameplay mods that utilize this approach, but without any real success. People try it but don't like the lower ratings; they can't wrap their head around the concept that to improve the gameplay you have to make certain ratings concessions.

That's all I've been trying to explain, nothing more.
This thread is about creating a system. So far you've said you won't use it. When I recommend that we could incorporate your ideas into it, you reject that. I can't figure out why you are commenting here if you're not actually participating. Either be a part of it, or don't. But I can't do anything with your vague notions of what you find believable if you don't quantify them. They exist solely in your head. Even if they are brilliant, that does nothing for this project.

Decide whether you wanna participate or not. If not, stop commenting. If so, start quantifying.
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Old 24-07-2015, 05:24:PM   #26
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Decide whether you wanna participate or not. If not, stop commenting.
What the hell man...? I have been participating. I have explained what I do. And I have offered suggestions and ideas to consider. Use them or don't use them, I don't care. This is your project, not mine, whatever system you decide to come up with is your business.

Also, this is an open forum and people are free to post as they please. If you don't want people commenting on your threads, then don't start threads, holy moly.
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