Three cheers to Matt Holme

[Mel Brennan]

I can say thank you for building a community of not only consumers and purchasers, but fans of the beautiful game in terms of how it might be expressed in a gaming context.

I cannot say I'm pleased to see EA co-opt independent thinking (how long has SG been an EA mouthpiece, given these events? Its a legitimate question...) and I simply will not celebrate; Matt, as many others here, has the ability to forge alternatives to the EA way of seeing, producing and being football gaming.

I didn't, and don't, want to see anyone else from this company co-opted into that corporate way of seeing gaming. Matt won't change EA; if any chainging takes place, Matt will be changed. After working at the highest levels in CONCACAF, for the e-FIFA Project, as well as managing the highest profile LBE venues for Disney, SEGA Gameworks, and WWF, I feel comfortable articulating the position and mindset of corporate giants like Electronic Arts.

What communities like this start out doing is expressing a level of applause and critique of game development. In response to that EA has not done anything other than intensify their marketing strategies. What we could have done, at the highest levels of this thing, which Matt represented, was begin to offer wholesale alternatives to the corporate game development model, beginning with a global product like a FIFA/soccer/football game. What we've ended up with here is Matt's dream, certainly, and maybe this - working for Electronic Arts on FIFA - was Matt's dream all along.

It certainly wasn't mine; I can differentiate between celebrating Matt's overwhelming founding contribution to a series of sites I've been engaged with since the first and being disappointed that all that energy ended up leaving the community in the same place, while watching its founding leadership co-opted into the current system, one that, again, simply has not effectively responded to the community other than to intensify marketing efforts of bad code.

I guess, in the end, I'm simply disappointed that we all would celebrate a move of this kind, given its larger implications. Have we thought about those? What do they say about this website, forum communication, and thinking critically about football gaming?

Good luck in all you do Matt, but as long as you work for EA, and as long as EA treats the football market the way it does (as opposed to the Madden market, for example, Tiburon began, and has carried over, an ethic of realism and authentic "build-upon" feature development), I will have to advocate against you and your newfound (or long-term) compatriots, a position I don't find enjoyable, but do find absolutely necessary.

 

[Help?]

I have no idea where you worked and what you have done, but i totally disagree with you.

First there really was no real reason to bring that old thread back, but anyways you say that EA threats Madden differently to FIFA. And i would like to ask you why? I haven't played Madden myself and whatever they have there graphics, all the stadiums, very realistic fans, jerseys etc. I know one thing it takes a hell of less work doing like 20 teams full package (from jerseys to the fans), then doing over 150 teams half package in 1 year. And you say the EA does not listen to the fans of FIFA? That is incorrect, they even had a special SG chat setted up by EA and SG for FIFA fans to ask questions, now if EA didn't career why would they waste their time on this then? And if you look at FIFA 2003 and FIFA 2004, they show a lot of things improved that the fans wanted the most. The AI, the fans, more stadiums, better graphics and other main improvements were the ones that fans wanted the most. I am sure that if EA was only doing like EPL in 1 year and called it EA EPL, then we would have a game not 1 bit worse then NFL Madden.

 

[ishan1990]

you gotta agree though.
Its a fudge of a lot easier doing 30 teams from american football. Besides that sport is so simple and stupid even a 3 year old could create a quality game on it.

(exaggeration)

 

[Mel Brennan]

Originally posted by Help?
I have no idea where you worked and what you have done, but i totally disagree with you.

Okay, well, I told you where I worked, and why where I've worked was significant to my assertions, but let's continue...

First there really was no real reason to bring that old thread back...

Certainly there was; I had something to say! Its not old to me, but I'm not always here...I'm busy raising a family and writing a doctoral thesis. I saw the "press release" by Matt, found a thread, and commented. The idea of "old or "new" matters less than "relevant, in any case.

...but anyways you say that EA threats Madden differently to FIFA. And i would like to ask you why? I haven't played Madden myself...

Well, you certainly are less than credible in terms of commenting on this then, but even if you haven't played Madden, and experienced the evolution of that franchise, you can certainly do some minor research on your own regarding Tiburon, EA, Madden, and that game's development.

...and whatever they have there graphics, all the stadiums, very realistic fans, jerseys etc. I know one thing it takes a hell of less work doing like 20 teams full package (from jerseys to the fans), then doing over 150 teams half package in 1 year...

What's interesting - and illuminating - is that you begin a comparison of the development of Madden and FIFA in terms of graphics, where I would begin with gameplay, but I guess that's why you would - apparently blindly - endorse FIFA's development process over Madden's, based solely on the "difficulty" of coding 300 jerseys versus 32 or so, which isn't in and of itself even a valid argument, had I been even engaging the development cycle at that level. It is without question not hard to dedicate a portion of the team to jersey development for a game and make it as realistic as, say, some of the patches we've found out here. the average patch, that provides wonderful "2GK" or whatever moniker jerseys here post-FIFA, takes on average a month to two months to do. EA Canada can't do that? And, again, the game development process cannot be reduced to graphics and kits. The very fact that you begin your ill-informed retort with graphics indicate that you are the very demo EA is seeking...the style over substace demo, and I rail against that in the strongest sense.

And you say the EA does not listen to the fans of FIFA? That is incorrect, they even had a special SG chat setted up by EA and SG for FIFA fans to ask questions, now if EA didn't career why would they waste their time on this then?

I challenge you, you specifically, to look back at each EA/"fans" chat session/dialogue session and see how many, if any, in terms of percentage, of the top ten ideas propagated in each year's "wish list" were implemented. If you find more than 10% of any years' top ten wish list implemented, Ill send you $50 USD to a Paypal account of your choice. I'm SUPREMELY confident that these "chats" were PR efforts at best, and certainly were perceived as engaging the committed gamer" as a marginal demo in terms of the overall marketing strategy of EA. Have you even looked at EA's annual report(s)?

And if you look at FIFA 2003 and FIFA 2004, they show a lot of things improved that the fans wanted the most. The AI, the fans, more stadiums, better graphics and other main improvements were the ones that fans wanted the most.

This is simply untrue. Let's take these one at a time. The AI for FIFA is THE SAME AI since FIFA 99. It's been tweaked, built upon and re-organised, but its the same AI. Its like building upon a mud house with more mud; as the house continues to fall apart each year, EA slings more mud on it, and says "look, we've built upon our house!" the fans' reaction is actually LESS realistics, when looked at in terms of crowd reaction to gameplay, than it was in RTWC 98!!! Crowds, the single aspect of the Football Experience that we as players know best, is the worst represented in FIFA. More stadiums, great. That's not about gameplay development, that's about license purchasing...any monkey can do that. Better graphics? I simply disagree. This year, I feel like the players look more like BURN VICTIMS than ever before. I think that the skin textures are an absolute failure, and represent a step back in graphical content, b.c they fail to achieve that basic thing, a suspension of disbelief, that is essential in today's sport gaming. You say "other main improvements," improvements like what? There is no QUESTION that EA Canada has failed in terms of improving the actual kick the ball/pass the ball experience. they've made it more button-complex, to be sure, but they haven't made ELEGANCE possible on the pitch; I can't put my personality into my gameplay. I can execute an intricate set of button presses, but that's not gameplay. If all you've played is FIFA, and if yu have't been around to follow the evolution of, say, Madden, or NHL, or Live, than you're operating with less knowledge than you need to comment effectively in this area.

I am sure that if EA was only doing like EPL in 1 year and called it EA EPL, then we would have a game not 1 bit worse then NFL Madden.

There's no evidence to indicate that at all. What does league development have to do with gameplay and crowd dynamics? Either you develop them, or you don't. If you don't, you do what EA does, which is tweak one aspect of the current engine, call it something marketable, like Off-the-Ball-control, or -what is it this year? Oh yes, "an all-new fluid player kinetic system," and slap a "TM" on it to make it look like something someone would want.

This back and forth, however, fails to engage the discussion at the level at which I hoped, and is in and of itself a type of post hoc ergo propter hoc Its fallacious to submit that we have the problems with FIFA due to the constraints of the timeframe, when the timeframe is something ESTABLISHED BY EA! That's a form of begging the question.

What I'm talking about by bothering to talk about - specifically - Matt's "departure" at all, is the idea of cyberspace as a space for the foment and formation of alternatives to the corporate status-quo, or the status-quo in any form (it currently happens to be corporate). But as long as you and folks like you think that EA is not the status quo, and think that EA is at the cutting edge of anything, instead of in the middle of where most of the money is to be made, than we as a community are likely to percieve Matt's departure to EA for something other than what it is, and that's too bad for our own sense of empowerment in terms of being able to really influence the industry, and the football gaming industry in particular.

But if I were you, I'd refrain in the future from beginning arguments with assertions regarding things yu know nothing about. How credible can an argument appear to be, when it begins with a refutation of an assertion about Madden while at the same time saying you've never played it?

That makes less sense than our cyber-leadership going to work for the corporate powers that be.

 

[Hristos]

I'm sure your posts are full of great stuff, but they're too long for my short attention span.

 

[Tom]

Yeah Well Done mate, you've done a stirlling job here!

TROD.

 

[PhiLLer]

Mel Brennan, I salute you. You are one of the very few who see and say how it really is. A lot of people here have no idea what goes on behind the scenes but you basically summed it up with your posts.

 

[Number9]

Jeez u keep your head down for a while and the whole place goes to pot! Matt Leaving and a cockney taking over

Gotta agree with Mel and Phil tho., great move for Matt and perhaps his long term career ambitions, but its a bad move for SG and the community as a whole.
YES it will have benifits, but i see more negatives then positives coming out of this over the years. EA have effectivly bought out their critics (or at least the leader of them).

On another note though, best of luck to Matt in his future and I have every confidence in Lior to carry on Matt's great work.

Cheers

Nath

 

[Help?]

Mel Brennan : Tell me what do you expect of FIFA? I may have not played Madden or NHL and i followed Live games not very closely but still played them, however i heard lots of comments about them from different people who play those games a lot.

You say all EA wants is money, it's a gaming company, so obviously it wants money, like many other companies. That's what people work there for - money. But you say it doesn't matter how many jerseys you have to make etc. it should take about the same time. It's about the jerseys, EA has to make players and their attributes, the names have to be accurate and the faces at least for some players should be more or less accurate. It may be easy to create a name, attribute and face for big stars like Beckham, Ronaldo, Zidane, Henry etc. But EA has over 1000 players and work on each one of them? It takes time. Then AI, you say all EA has done is imrpoved the AI every year since 99. So you say that the AI form 2000 and 2004 are basically the same?

About the wishlist: Do you remember when the fans wanted names in shirts for players? GK to have their own shirts (famous ones at least), more stadiums, better free-kicks, better shirts, better graphics, better fans, more songs and chants. I even remember when people were asking for the editor and Chau was providing us with one, until the EA created 2003 Editor. All this ideas were among the main ideas fans wanted in the last 3-4 years and you can find that even on this forum. All of that has been improved, of coarse there are things that really need to be change and improved still, but quite a few things were changed already.

The AI, EA improves it every year. And every year i see when EA releases it's pre-game video, the fans say or it's amazing! IT's gonna be great and then when they play the game, they say damn it sucks! It's just that people will never get enough from a game. I even remeber reading when the first FIFA 2001 screenshots came out, a lot of people were like or i don't care about anything else as long as graphics will be exactly like on the screenshot i will be very happy, then FIFA 2001 came out, everyone was excited because of their first time experience, then they got used to it and got bored and started complaining again.

If you look at PES, it's by war the best football game ever, but how much time did Konami had to realease it? They didn't even had to worry about making the jerseys accurate. The names were all inccorect because of the license and there were more players with unexistant names than players like Yorrke or Becham. So Konami had all the time in the world to create AI, which then turned out amazing cause they had time. As for EA, they didn't have that and they can't just say, ok we will leave all the stadiums, names, players, shirts, fans, songs, attributes everything the same, and we will focus on AI for a year. This maybe be what people want here, but if they did that, there would be way more complains that right now.




I understand and respect your opinion, but time plays a huge role in making that game, plus the fact that EA Canada creates FIFA makes the AI not so good as we would want it to be. I know that EA Germany or UK would have done a lot better job, because they have people with real feeling for the game, while in Canada it's a bit different.

 

[V-9]

Originally posted by Help?
Mel Brennan If you look at PES, it's by war the best football game ever, but how much time did Konami had to realease it? They didn't even had to worry about making the jerseys accurate. The names were all inccorect because of the license and there were more players with unexistant names than players like Yorrke or Becham. So Konami had all the time in the world to create AI, which then turned out amazing cause they had time. As for EA, they didn't have that and they can't just say, ok we will leave all the stadiums, names, players, shirts, fans, songs, attributes everything the same, and we will focus on AI for a year. This maybe be what people want here, but if they did that, there would be way more complains that right now.
I understand and respect your opinion, but time plays a huge role in making that game, plus the fact that EA Canada creates FIFA makes the AI not so good as we would want it to be. I know that EA Germany or UK would have done a lot better job, because they have people with real feeling for the game, while in Canada it's a bit different.

You must be joking right? Do you think that there are only two people working on a game? There are teams of people working on a game. You have the AI team, the graphics team, the animation team, audio team, the marketing and research team, etc... Each team has a specific tasks. So the excuse that KONAMI has more time than EA to work on AI is ridiculous. Either EA has a lousy AI department or they don't want to make FIFA into a real simulation.
I don't know if you have even played the latest version of PES, but most of the players do have their real names. So Beckham is Beckham.
EA Canada may produce the game, but the FIFA team make up of programmers all around the world. So the excuse that Canandians know nothing about football is again REDICULOUS.

 

[Help?]

Originally posted by V-9
You must be joking right? Do you think that there are only two people working on a game? There are teams of people working on a game. You have the AI team, the graphics team, the animation team, audio team, the marketing and research team, etc... Each team has a specific tasks. So the excuse that KONAMI has more time than EA to work on AI is ridiculous. Either EA has a lousy AI department or they don't want to make FIFA into a real simulation.
I don't know if you have even played the latest version of PES, but most of the players do have their real names. So Beckham is Beckham.
EA Canada may produce the game, but the FIFA team make up of programmers all around the world. So the excuse that Canandians know nothing about football is again REDICULOUS.

In PES Konami didn't have the Fifa license at that time, so the names were fake, same as in PES 2. They only got the license for PES 3.


I know that they have the team for each department, but what do you want from them? It's not like 1000 people work on the game. What do you expect to get form Fifa? Improved AI?


After FIFA 2001 a lot of people complained that the goalkeepers are super great and that 85% of goals are bicycle kicks, in FIFA 2002 that was improved a lot, the goals were no more bicycles and the keepers weren't that good, then people complained that it's not tactical enough and you still do basically the same thing to score, in FIFA 2003 the game was improved significatnly in tactical area, but then again people said that the keepers sucked and still the passing, throw-ins etc was really bad, so that was improved in FIFA 2004. What do you want from EA, a perfect game in 1 year? It will never happen. Take Fifa 2001 and Fifa 2004 and compare their AI’s, I can tell you write now, the differences are enormous in just 3 years, think what we will have in 3 more years.

 

[PhiLLer]

I've got to say you have a vail of deception over your eyes and it's this market that EA try and have succesfully reach, simple.

This will just turn into another EA vs Konami flaming war, I can see it happening but the fact of the matter is that more people work on the FIFA games than on the PES games. EA have more than a hundred people and believe me, making jerseys, faces (which is done fairly easy using photos), players names and attributes are all very easy, especially if this isn't your first game, remember EA Sports have built up a huge database of player names, stats, appearences so that's no excuse.

But like I said, this will just turn into one trying to convince the other of what's right and what isn't. At the end of the day it is a matter of preference, do you like being tricked into buying something that isn't even worth the money of an add-on pack or do you go for something authentic and new year after year.

 

[Mel Brennan]

Originally posted by Help?
Mel Brennan : Tell me what do you expect of FIFA? I may have not played Madden or NHL and i followed Live games not very closely but still played them, however i heard lots of comments about them from different people who play those games a lot.

You say all EA wants is money, it's a gaming company, so obviously it wants money, like many other companies. That's what people work there for - money. But you say it doesn't matter how many jerseys you have to make etc. it should take about the same time. It's about the jerseys, EA has to make players and their attributes, the names have to be accurate and the faces at least for some players should be more or less accurate. It may be easy to create a name, attribute and face for big stars like Beckham, Ronaldo, Zidane, Henry etc. But EA has over 1000 players and work on each one of them? It takes time. Then AI, you say all EA has done is imrpoved the AI every year since 99. So you say that the AI form 2000 and 2004 are basically the same?

About the wishlist: Do you remember when the fans wanted names in shirts for players? GK to have their own shirts (famous ones at least), more stadiums, better free-kicks, better shirts, better graphics, better fans, more songs and chants. I even remember when people were asking for the editor and Chau was providing us with one, until the EA created 2003 Editor. All this ideas were among the main ideas fans wanted in the last 3-4 years and you can find that even on this forum. All of that has been improved, of coarse there are things that really need to be change and improved still, but quite a few things were changed already.

The AI, EA improves it every year. And every year i see when EA releases it's pre-game video, the fans say or it's amazing! IT's gonna be great and then when they play the game, they say damn it sucks! It's just that people will never get enough from a game. I even remeber reading when the first FIFA 2001 screenshots came out, a lot of people were like or i don't care about anything else as long as graphics will be exactly like on the screenshot i will be very happy, then FIFA 2001 came out, everyone was excited because of their first time experience, then they got used to it and got bored and started complaining again.

If you look at PES, it's by war the best football game ever, but how much time did Konami had to realease it? They didn't even had to worry about making the jerseys accurate. The names were all inccorect because of the license and there were more players with unexistant names than players like Yorrke or Becham. So Konami had all the time in the world to create AI, which then turned out amazing cause they had time. As for EA, they didn't have that and they can't just say, ok we will leave all the stadiums, names, players, shirts, fans, songs, attributes everything the same, and we will focus on AI for a year. This maybe be what people want here, but if they did that, there would be way more complains that right now.




I understand and respect your opinion, but time plays a huge role in making that game, plus the fact that EA Canada creates FIFA makes the AI not so good as we would want it to be. I know that EA Germany or UK would have done a lot better job, because they have people with real feeling for the game, while in Canada it's a bit different.

Wow; this entire post is like Christmas-come-early for a flamer, which I'm not, so I'll leave it with the reponses you've already recieved plus some comments.

For you to cite the FIFA 2003 Creation Centre as an effective response by EA to fans' desire to edit effectively (i.e., step outside the in game menu, which is INADEQUATE!) their own game means very simply that you and I exist in a different reality, and those different realities are due to to different initial stimuli. You begin with the premise that EA, with regard to FIFA, are authenticity-centered, competent, and committeed to product development. I simply do not believe that, based upon the evidence that has been in front of me since FIFA 99. How many times has a feature been in a game, for it to NOT be in the game the very next season? How does that ever HAPPEN in a company with a real development plan? I mean, let me give you one small comparative example, using Madden - even though you've never played it. THIS is where the development is on Madden right now (Madden 2004):

New, Deep Owner Mode: Hire your own staff, set your team’s ticket prices, build your own stadium, reward key players with signing bonuses and boost player attributes in Mini-Camp drills.

Where's the off-season in FIFA? Where's the Owner Mode? Where's the...oh, never mind...we are still trying to FIGURE OUT THE GAMEPLAY!!!

Deeper Franchise Mode: Mini-camp drills boost up players during franchise mode in the off season, new Horse Trailer Player of the Game, and signing bonuses to emulate the NFL's real salary cap system.

I don't even want to go on.

Look EA can do it; they show that with other product. But as long as they can put out feculence like FIFA year after year (see my post on finally having the opportunity to discover another PC football game here), and as long as people like you buy it, and as long as the cyber-leadership who establish venues for applause and critique can be co-opted, we simply won't get what we deserve.

My specific bet regarding the wish-lists and the implementation thereof still stands; If you think you are right, do a little research, and I'll give you $50. Although, it seems to me, that if you were the type to do a little research you would be posting much much differently.

I'm done with this; I hope that at a minimum my intention (to talk about employing cyber community, and its ability to critically engage the gaming powers that be) in terms of applauding Matt in one way while absolutely ripping him in another got through.

 

[Mel Brennan]

Sorry, one more thing: this is the development plan for Madden as represented by the differences in Madden 2004 a(some of which I shared above) and Madden 2005:

New Hit Stick — Change the momentum of a game by using the right analog stick to make a huge hit, force a turnover, and send the crowd into a frenzy. Time it just right or you’ll get burned for a big play.

New Defensive Playmaker Control — You are now in complete control on defense. Modify pre-snap assignments, including double teams and player-specific match ups, for any defensive player on the field.

New Storyline Central — Get inside the NFL like you never have. Now your games are impacted by the stories that surround your team. Satisfy your star WR’s demands or watch your team chemistry suffer. Get the scoop from local and national newspapers, email from assistant coaches, and Tony Bruno’s weekly radio talk show.

Enhanced Franchise Mode — Players now react to everything that happens in the franchise—reward a hard-working player by naming him team captain or trade away unhappy players. The new game-by-game progression system rewards players for their performance during the season.

New Fan Presentation — Your team’s crowd is now customizable with new Create-a-Fan. Be on the lookout for team-specific super fans via all-new 3D fan scenes.

Let's not kid ourselves; FIFA has no real development plan, and certainly none comparatively speaking. Period.

Can you imagine a real franchise mode? fan presentation? storyline central?

EA Canada's team might REALLY need Matt after all, lol.

 

[Help?]

Originally posted by PhiLLer
I've got to say you have a vail of deception over your eyes and it's this market that EA try and have succesfully reach, simple.

This will just turn into another EA vs Konami flaming war, I can see it happening

I don't start stupid arguments. If i can't convince a person after a couple of attempts, then i drop it. The point is i like FIFA and i know it will be better, you don't like it, it's your opinion.





Mel Brennan : i play FIFA just to play the game, i don't care about off-season or changing attributes or anything. I can get all that and more in CM or TCM, that's why i never really thought about those mini-camps and media etc etc etc. I hope you understand what i mean.

 

[Gerrard 17]

Don't even waste your time Mel.

He starts an argument with no facts to back it up.

And the fact that he brought up the EA-SG chat as a proof that EA listens to the fans just proves how flawed his theories are

 

[Help?]

Originally posted by Gerrard 17
Don't even waste your time Mel.

He starts an argument with no facts to back it up.

And the fact that he brought up the EA-SG chat as a proof that EA listens to the fans just proves how flawed his theories are

Ok . Like i said i won't start an argument.

 

[Gerrard 17]

You already did.

Argument is a debate, it doesn't have to be people flaming each other, you know? It's merely people expressing contradicting views.

So yeah, too late for "starting" an argument, Einstein.

 

[rony31]

Originally posted by Gerrard 17
You already did.

Argument is a debate, it doesn't have to be people flaming each other, you know? It's merely people expressing contradicting views.

So yeah, too late for "starting" an argument, Einstein.

shut up n00b

 

[Help?]

Originally posted by Gerrard 17
You already did.

Argument is a debate, it doesn't have to be people flaming each other, you know? It's merely people expressing contradicting views.

So yeah, too late for "starting" an argument, Einstein.

Ok i call that another word, but if you say that it's an argument, then like i said before i will drop it, since there is no use of it. Happy now?????