Screw Konami

[MightyTic]

annoying thing too , is L1 icon change. This seems once pressed (manual) jumps to the player furthest away from the cpu player you need to tackle..

Another 1 on icon change , lead 1-0 tonight v cpu , the cpu got a corner and my CH who was standing right in the middle of the 6yrd box about 3yrds out from the goal was highighted (icon above this head) I watched the flight of the ball , coming right at my CH I was ready to press a button to head it away but as the ball came within heading distance my control Icon jumped to one of my other players out by the penalty spot and my CH just stood there and the cpu player behind him headed the ball into the back of the net for 1-1. I did NOT press L1 during the flight of that ball the cpu at the last moment changed the player I had under my control , this allowed the cpu to get a goal and go level at 1-1..

There was nothing I could do, it happened that last and that late I had no time to react ...

 

[simakperrce]

I strongly suspect the experience of the cpu cheating to be a mere psychological effect rather than the result of secret program routines that were implemented to make the game more challenging.
... even if theories about secret (game-)world orders and other conspiracy stuff is always fascinating..

Of course. Dozens of people who complain about it (noobs and veteran posters alike) -- and who have actually pointed it out FOR YEARS now -- are mentally ill and /or conspiracy buffs, and see things which aren't there. I am sorry to be that blunt, but you, sir, are an a..hole.

I strongly suggest that your uncritical love of this game has a psychological effect on YOU, in that it makes you literally blind to what many other people have been seeing for ages now and consider a scheme that is quite obviously designed into the game on purpose -- i think in psychological terms it's called 'pathological denial'.

If I remember right, Konami themselves admitted to having build in certain "tactics" into the game a while ago, and anybody who knows a thing or two about programming also knows, that this is currently the most economic way to come up with a halfway decent AI. I guess the programmers must be mentally retarded then too. Plus, the fanboys kept complaining about PES3/4 being "too easy". Now they got what they deserve.

Now, it's ok with me if you decide to keep on living in that happy condition of yours, as long as you are not starting to make idiotic suggestions about 'psychological states' of other people or come on here like a smartass and pigeonhole other PES players into being nutcases on whom you can have some cheap laughs -- because many among these people have probably played this game much longer than you. And who BTW says that everyone is expecting PES to be "fun". I am having my own ideas about things being fun or not and I don't need idiots like you telling me in a patronizing manner that my attitude "takes away from the fun of the game", daddy.

Finally I side with Wolf here in that people who do not have a problem whatsoever with the things brought up here, or deny that they actually exist altogether, should please go and search a happy warm and fuzzy thread instead, and stop lecturing me and others on formations and super-cancel. You know, I KNOW all these things, but they have no effect on what I consider to be the problem here.

@Knight

The number of variables does not automatically say something about the way a system works or whether it's more realistic or not. I can design a program with 5 variables that is more realistic than one that has 500. It all depends on what you make with these variables.

You somehow seem to suggest that you just need to feed the system enough variables and it'll automatically become more realistic. This is almost as if you think the program exists by itself, as an entity independent from its creators. But it's man made after all. The variables are. The algorithms that handle the variables' input are, and the routines that make the system react to certain input (via the variables) are as well. As such, it is fairly easy to manipulate them and it happens all the time in PES.

I actually wonder sometimes why they have this detailed stats system when the CPU can fiddle with these stats in game whenever it desires. Why does Owen for example have speed and accel stats of close to 100 when in the game he is easily caught by the slowest defenders (when on your team)? Obviously there are two variables for "Owen's speed" where there should only be one. Do you think this is a result of an intelligent system or rather man made design in lack of a better and more realistic solution?

 

[john2gr]

Jeez don't examine every damn word to death.By unscripted i meant that there weren't SO MANY script events as there are in PES5.So let me rephrase it,it wasn't so scripted .And we aren't talking about passes or simple things.We are talking for script events such as the shooting script (thus the player's leg go through players in order to kick the ball).

 

[kschoice]

I just had the AI undergo an unbiased test (meaning, no human influence involved). I watched three Brazil-China, CPU vs CPU, 5 stars, 10 minutes.

In the first one, China scored first in the beginning of the second half, with a direct header on a corner kick. Strangely enough, Brazil got an equalizer on the very last moment of a quite long overtime, with the chinese defenders completely out of position. 1 - 1.

In the second one, no goal was scored, even though China got the most dangerous chances, but always screwed up the last pass. 0 - 0.

In the third one, China first got a one-on-one against the keeper on a through ball, but screwed it. Then Brazil scored at the 70th minute when Ronaldinho got a lost ball in the axis, kept the ball after being countered by the last defender, and finally avoided the keeper to score. Brazil 1 - China 0.

Now, I don't know how one could be happy with that. The best and the most technical side of the game seems unable to create opportunities against the worst one, and (barely) gets to win one game out of three. It even gets threatened with counter-attacks. How can one expect that an AI that isn't able to demonstrate in a roughly accurate way the difference in stats between the best squad in the game and the worst could provide a fair challenge against a human player ? The only way that comes to mind is making the human player's side play even worst than the worst team in the game.

We have tools to test the AI. A good AI should, most of the time, be able to dominate a poor team, and be efficient in extremely favorable opportunities. The AI is also found without any ideas when confronted with no defence at all, not knowing how to deal with it regarding to offsides too. Making your keeper come to the ball is also still a good way to block the AI, even if it has improved in this regard in PES 5. But you will still find the player coming to your keeper instead of trying to avoid him, or passing the ball to a teammate. From my experience, not playing or removing all defence is as good a way to prevent goals than actually defending. I'm tired of pretending that I'm playing defence for a purpose, I want the CPU to be able to really threaten me, especially when the team I'm up against is supposed to be (way) better than me.

 

[redman]

I cant believe what i read here

Do we play the same game

 

[plus4s]

To be quite honest i believe people are not happy unless they can complain about something, i mean no disrespect to anyone on these forums. But seriously some people just go on an on and on.
Granted these forums are for just that reason i suppose, but man you get one person who discovers a flaw and then suddenly you get a whole host of people claiming this is wrong and that is wrong. It was only a little while ago now everyone was rocking and praising pro 5 for the fantastic game it is. And now suddenly since it's been found to have a few flaws certain people are starting to throw it to the wasteside.
I wonder how long before we start hearing "i am going back to fifa". No disrespect to easports intended but fifa 2006 is a joke. Talk about scripted gameplay, everyone has an opinion and that is mine. I am no fanboy. I have played the fifa games for many years, i just prefer the pes games. Basically the people who own a pc must have been very excited at the prospect at being able to play pes3 when it appeared on the pc. I know i was. In my view pro 4 was even better and this was also the view of this very same forum, well it was for a while anyway until it's few faults started to appear and people started slagging it off. And here we are again with pro 5 which in my mind is so much better than pro 4 ,which again is getting slagged off. It's quite funny really because you look in the fifa 2006 forum and you see that game getting slagged off by it's followers also. Believe me i am no expert at pro evolution soccer ,i am far from it. I actually play on 3*, do i win ?, hardly ever. Do i complain ? never. If the computer does indeed cheat as many people believe, well i would not be able to recognise it as i am to involved in trying to beat the computer players. If people just played the game and stopped feeling sorry for themselves they would get a lot more out of the game.
If konami read some comments on this forum "example pes5 cheating bastards" you could imagine them to be a little upset. And who knows maybe stop developing certain games for certain formats.(konami make many different games for different formats,losing one may not be such a big deal). One last thought! how long before people get that upset with how pro evolution plays that there is talk about gameplay patches ? . You know the ones that are allways applied to the fifa games.

 

[MasterM]

^ people that complain about people complaining about pes5 should stop complaining.
seriously people that complain about pes5 are actually giving feedback to konami, with that feedback they can make the game better.

 

[plus4s]

I do see where your coming from mister m, i just feel that the more your willing to put into playing pro 5 the more you will get out of it. This has been talked about many times, but all games have their faults and the few that are in pro 5 don't ruin the gaming experience. You will for one reason or another allways return to the pro evolution series. Why! because even though it's got it's faults it's by far the best soccer game by a loooong way. And i suppose there will allways be people who are critical because mainly they do love the game and they want it to be right. Like wolf said in an earlier post let's wait until the next gen consoles come out and then see what pro evolution soccer is like.

 

[The_Knight]

The number of variables does not automatically say something about the way a system works or whether it's more realistic or not. I can design a program with 5 variables that is more realistic than one that has 500. It all depends on what you make with these variables.

You somehow seem to suggest that you just need to feed the system enough variables and it'll automatically become more realistic. This is almost as if you think the program exists by itself, as an entity independent from its creators. But it's man made after all. The variables are. The algorithms that handle the variables' input are, and the routines that make the system react to certain input (via the variables) are as well. As such, it is fairly easy to manipulate them and it happens all the time in PES.

I actually wonder sometimes why they have this detailed stats system when the CPU can fiddle with these stats in game whenever it desires. Why does Owen for example have speed and accel stats of close to 100 when in the game he is easily caught by the slowest defenders (when on your team)? Obviously there are two variables for "Owen's speed" where there should only be one. Do you think this is a result of an intelligent system or rather man made design in lack of a better and more realistic solution?

Well Owen, as well as each and every other player in PES, has 5 -not only 2- but 5 different speeds. One for each forme (the arrow system). So on a good day, Owen could have a speed of 96, and on another, his speed cud be down to 87. Happens in real-life. Nothing wrong there.

That's why u find urself substituting him with another player in good forme, even though he's MICHEAL OWEN, and the other player cud be someone else having a 'good' day... Only adds to the realism/variability of the game.

What makes real-life unpredictable is the amount of countless variables you encounter every day. So when u are making a soccer simulator, you want to make sure u pack as many variables possible PROVIDED THAT these r the same variables the govern the outcome of a soccer move in real-life. That's what Konami is implementing, and what EA isn't. It's what makes PES/WE the most realistic game to date.

Now ur suggesting that the computer is manipulating these variables for its own interest. Well that's not what ppl were talking about here. They are saying that intentionally, the game makes a player NOT make a pass, or NOT go to the ball, or sometimes just stop in mid-run to allow the cpu to get to it first. That's what they r suggesting. Anyhow, if u let a league run without interference, you'll find that the teams with the best players and highest attributes are the ones that end up in the top spots. Which is the rule in reality. The computer doesn't interfere with the already-set player attributes. The computer is just provided with data, and this unchanged data with variables is what governs the outcome of each match... hopefully, the outcome is close to reality. So yes, you feed a simulator with the variables, and its a stand-alone process. Unless u feed the simulator with a program that makes the variables 'more variable'... well that's called law of probability. Not every time does a 'Ronaldo' in a red arrow, get to score everytime he aims at the goal.

What I DID hear before, and that was official, since PES3... the game is programmed so as the final outcome of a game wudn't be unrealstic, like 9-0. You don't score at every chance. And the amount of goals u score is related to ur dominance in the game and to the number of chances you got. All this programming was in order to make the game's reults as realistic as possible. But again, this is old news. The form of 'cheating' people are suggesting here is a totally different one...

 

[ugluk]

I hear all this crap about "no game is unsrcipted" and blah blah blah, but I would like to point out that PES 4 had none of this.

I remember smashing my keyboard (which I broke, eventually) in PES 3, because the switching method just plain sucked and I kept on conceding on the stupidest of plays. In PES 4, I never EVER (yes, not once in the entire year) yelled at the game. My defenders were not stupid and any goal conceded was my fault, or the low skill level of my defenders. True, PES 4 was not the most realistic of games (I learned how to dribble past 6 defenders in a row on 6*), but it was not crappy at least. It did not have numerous frustrating features.

Each of game of PES 5, no matter what the outcome is (I actually won my last game - for once) manages to piss me off. Be it a stupid move on my defender's part or a retarded uncontrolled trap, it makes me yell at the screen. That should not be happening. Yeling at oneself is ok, because when I make a mistake, I deserve it. But yelling at the comp because it once again screwed me over is a sign that the game wasn't "proofread" as well.

Also it is true that when you play the CPU (not another player), there is very little difference between Chelsea and, say, Lokomotiv Moscow. The only difference is that Chelsea players run faster and the keeper blocks more shots. Otherwise, I get as many plays on them as I do on any other team and I have as many scoring chances. The fact they are fast screws over my Stein-Jaric-Libermann defense, but otherwise, I see no difference.

In PES 4, you could erase all the kits and logos and be able to tell what team you were playing by its style of play. I remember playing as Lokomotiv and realising that the most effective way for me to build up my attacks was the actual way they did it in real life. In PES 5, it has become generic.

I am not saying that PES 5 is an utterly horrendous game. In fact, the realism of the game in general (bugs excluded), is much better in this version. But if PES 4 totally convinced me to stop buying FIFA every year, PES 5 made me do it again.

 

[borjan]

Im really beggining to think that some ppl here are playing some other game...

you mate told that playing vs Chelsea and vs Lokomotiv were preety much tha same...

okey maybe you did experience that...but my experince told total opposite...

I was playing derby match as Inter vs Milan (CPU)...managed to score lucky goal by Adriano in 30 min...till that moment it was preety much even game with few chances on both sides...but after that Milan showed some fantastic soccer AI pressuring all the time...things got worse when AI pulled off Cafu for Vieri as third striker in Milans formation...I was totaly in defense, and Pirlo and Seedorf were making great actions like some great human players I have played before...never felt harder playing vs AI as in that match...they got equilazer in 70th minute by Vieri header after Pirlo smacked down three of my players...at the end I was celebrating 1-1 result...for me it was like a win...

so hard playing against Milan and Juve...on the other hand I smack teams like Ascoli and Treviso with 5-0, 6-1 wins...played vs Roma and vs Udinese 1-1 and 2-2...

so you cant tell that is preety much the same playing with all CPU controlled teams

also I played all PES series from Iss till today...always seemed like 4-3-3 and 3-4-3 tactic were winners vs AI...

in PES5 that isnt case any more

 

[ugluk]

i always like a 3-5-2 or a 4-4-2... worked well for me since I started playing PES.

I want to show you a prime example from my latest game (this should silence the "OMFG USE SUPERCANCEL" freaks):

My ML team vs Liverpool, I'm away. Yea, I shouldn't win. Cisse puts in a header from a corner - reasonable goal, I'm down by 1. Then, through some persistent attacking, I get a PK and equalise. Nice.
Second half, everything seems to be going fine (I'm not yelling at the screen). By some random action, I manage to score a rather lucky (but not crappy or unrealistic) goal. Hooray! I'm up 2-1.
75th minute - As always, the CPU suddenly starts playing 10x the usual skill. After a 10-minute long bombardment of my goal, there is a cross, but my defender attemps to clear it, sending the ball straight up instead. He and his opponent stand on the ground, waiting for the ball to come back to the ground while I bash the "clear" button. My defender simply stands there as the opponent jumps, heads the ball, hits the post and scores. Great. 2-2 with 5 mins to go.
90+1st minute. 2 v 2 counter-attack, I lay off a ball to the supporting forward. Seeing that this might cause me some problems, I instantly hit supercancel, trying to force my player to run to the right flank of the field (down button). Instead, he swerves off to the right, leaving the ball to the opponent defender. WTF??!!!!

So shut the hell up about supercancelling and other "mad skills" that you people possess. This game cheats. Literally.

Oh and Chopa - Idk. I haven't seen any difference from one team to another.

 

[pere]

Of course. Dozens of people who complain about it (noobs and veteran posters alike) -- and who have actually pointed it out FOR YEARS now -- are mentally ill and /or conspiracy buffs, and see things which aren't there. I am sorry to be that blunt, but you, sir, are an a..hole.

You misunderstood something here:
To say that the behaviour of a person can be explained in psychological terms has absolutely nothing to do with this person being "mentally ill".
Also, in the case of PES it is not about seeing things which arent there but more about drawing conclusions from observations that I suspect not to be objective.
The sole fact that it is dozens or more people sharing an impression about something does not in any way prove them right. For example just imagine any important but close referee decision in a real football match and how the club supporters perceive it.

Anyways, I did never call anyone mentally ill or something like that, so I urge you to please stop accusing me of doing so.

And btw the conspiracy thing was not meant all that serious, you might have overlooked the " "

I strongly suggest that your uncritical love of this game ...

Its always nice to get an offer for a free personal psychological analysis on a football-videogame forum from a person I don't even know, but no thanks, I'm fine

Now, it's ok with me if you decide to keep on living in that happy condition of yours, as long as you are not starting to make idiotic suggestions about 'psychological states' of other people or come on here like a smartass and pigeonhole other PES players into being nutcases on whom you can have some cheap laughs -- because many among these people have probably played this game much longer than you. And who BTW says that everyone is expecting PES to be "fun". I am having my own ideas about things being fun or not and I don't need idiots like you telling me in a patronizing manner that my attitude "takes away from the fun of the game", daddy.

I'm sorry, but you seem to have again totally missed my point here.
Actually I wasn't trying to make fun of other players at all, nor was I saying anything about "everybody is expecting PES to be fun", and i also was not at all denying everyones individual approach to enjoing a game.
I was only explaining that IMO (!) playing is more enjoyable when the player is not suspecting the game to cheat; and, to put it into Juce's words, consider any cheating-effects as game rules. If you disagree with that then you are free to express yourself or not. But I don't need ppl calling me an idiot and pointlessly accusing me of patronizing other pes players or calling them mentally ill and crap like that. I don't see why you made all this up.

Finally I side with Wolf here in that people who do not have a problem whatsoever with the things brought up here, or deny that they actually exist altogether, should please go and search a happy warm and fuzzy thread instead, and stop lecturing me and others on formations and super-cancel. You know, I KNOW all these things, but they have no effect on what I consider to be the problem here.

Congratiulations on siding with the Wolf, whose hard work brought joy to hundreds (or more likely thousands) of pc players including myself. Nevertheless I don't really care if its ok for you or not that I am posting my opinion and impressions about pes5 into this forum, as long as i am on topic and not in conflict with forum rules. Although I think that the idea of 'only listening to people that are telling what one wants to hear' is a bit embarrassing, but I guess you have your reasons for that.


Finally some last words on topic

To find out whether the cpu cheats, I suggest playing a wefa-final game, recording it (with fraps or an external recorder/other pc) , counting, say, ball deflections, ref decisions and goals/chances for you and the cpu and taking notes about the responsiveness of players. then repeat this process, say 50 times to be at least close to able to conclude any statistically relevant statement. My guess is that you would not find any significant bias in favor of the cpu that is not a clear result of tactic settings and player stats.

 

[SEPAKBOLA]

i've started to record every one of my ML games just so I can read up on this thread, then watch my games and compare complaints with my actual in-game footage. there is a solution to everything, but yeah.my2cents.dunzo.

peace
m.l

 

[kschoice]

did someone read my message on the last page about the outcome of 3 Brazil-China games, CPU vs CPU ?

 

[kschoice]

Well Owen, as well as each and every other player in PES, has 5 -not only 2- but 5 different speeds. One for each forme (the arrow system). So on a good day, Owen could have a speed of 96, and on another, his speed cud be down to 87. Happens in real-life. Nothing wrong there.

That's why u find urself substituting him with another player in good forme, even though he's MICHEAL OWEN, and the other player cud be someone else having a 'good' day... Only adds to the realism/variability of the game.

You miss the point. He wasn't complaining about Michael Owen not running at the same speed from game to game, which is obviously a good thing, but about him being caught by each and every defender in the game, no matter how slow they are, no matter the arrows, as long as it is a human player who controls him.

What makes real-life unpredictable is the amount of countless variables you encounter every day. So when u are making a soccer simulator, you want to make sure u pack as many variables possible PROVIDED THAT these r the same variables the govern the outcome of a soccer move in real-life. That's what Konami is implementing, and what EA isn't. It's what makes PES/WE the most realistic game to date.

Now ur suggesting that the computer is manipulating these variables for its own interest. Well that's not what ppl were talking about here. They are saying that intentionally, the game makes a player NOT make a pass, or NOT go to the ball, or sometimes just stop in mid-run to allow the cpu to get to it first. That's what they r suggesting. Anyhow, if u let a league run without interference, you'll find that the teams with the best players and highest attributes are the ones that end up in the top spots. Which is the rule in reality. The computer doesn't interfere with the already-set player attributes. The computer is just provided with data, and this unchanged data with variables is what governs the outcome of each match... hopefully, the outcome is close to reality. So yes, you feed a simulator with the variables, and its a stand-alone process. Unless u feed the simulator with a program that makes the variables 'more variable'... well that's called law of probability. Not every time does a 'Ronaldo' in a red arrow, get to score everytime he aims at the goal.

Don't jump to conclusion here. Results in a league are totally different, because they don't use the game engine to resolve. If they were using the game engine, as my experience with Brazil vs China games suggests, you would end up with mostly 0-0s, because the AI is unable to create opportunities.

What I DID hear before, and that was official, since PES3... the game is programmed so as the final outcome of a game wudn't be unrealstic, like 9-0. You don't score at every chance. And the amount of goals u score is related to ur dominance in the game and to the number of chances you got. All this programming was in order to make the game's reults as realistic as possible. But again, this is old news. The form of 'cheating' people are suggesting here is a totally different one...

And even in that it doesn't succeed, because when you get used to the game, you can win 9-0 (or more) even in the highest level of difficulty, and against the best teams (I remember a 9-0 against Real Madrid in PES 3 ML, for example). And this is really not a good way of dealing with things. It reminds me of Gran Turismo 3 when you would be 15 seconds per lap faster than any other car when qualifying, and then during the race the gap between you and the second would never exceed 3 seconds.

This catch up is really there, and I thank you for pointing it out. It leads to very poor behaviors of the game. For example, every time the defence is outnumbered, the defenders will find themselves much better to prevent the easy goal. I find this highly questionable that they wouldn't play their best unless they're in danger, but I understand that some of you might find that realistic. But whenever CPU has a player sent off (which almost never happens), it often raises the difficulty level because of that. And when the human has players sent off, the CPU is still so poor at creating opportunities that the odds of the human winning are still very high.
Now in PES 5, it happens that CPU substitues a defender for an attacker, especially when losing in cup games. Again due to the catch up, you find that it is not easier to beat the defence in that case, and you usually get trouble defending. If that's so efficient, why not do it from the kick off ? We have the answer in real life, but in the game, with the catch up, this kind of difference vanishes.

In the end, I find that the difficulty of a game doesn't (or hardly) depend on the quality of the two sides and the number of players in each squad, and just that is a blatant shame.

 

[SEPAKBOLA]

i know its offtopic,but is there a PES5 option file editor anywhere? i tried the search function, i need to get crackin on my gameplay patch

 

[kschoice]

i know its offtopic,but is there a PES5 option file editor anywhere? i tried the search function, i need to get crackin on my gameplay patch

http://perso.numericable.fr/~ryannick

 

[SEPAKBOLA]

thx,but says service is temporarily unavailable. been waitin for that site to get workin too - thanks again.

 

[kschoice]

thx,but says service is temporarily unavailable. been waitin for that site to get workin too - thanks again.

Site works fine for me.