Let's talk about tactics

[ShiftyPowers]

Ok, so I noticed that we don't usually talk about tactics here and that's somewhat of a shame, although they can get boring at times. Here's the deal though, I have a dream that one day my defenders will start an attack when there is space and they will be covered by someone else, where positions aren't really that important as long as someone is defending and I get men attacking when it makes sense. Yes fellas, I want to make a Total Football tactic, but I don't really know if it's possible.

First of all of course you need some damn good players to do it, you can't have Joe Shlub central defender start dribbling up the pitch and some other idiot forget to cover for him leading to an easy goal for the opposition. Secondly, positioning, which seems important in this game isn't really a factor, so I was thinking maybe you leave the central defense in a more traditional way, but have attacking fullbacks and perhaps a sweeper (if they have the ability) playing the Beckenbauer role by winning the ball and then attacking the appropriate weak spots in the other team's defense.

Then I think a target striker is very important, one who can run, jump, head, pass, finish, dribble, and be strong on the ball.

Next you need an attacking mid playing all over the pitch, dribbling past guys he can take and making smart passes, maybe like Veron when he played at Lazio, or I assume (since I wasn't alive in 1974) Cruyff played for Holland and Ajax.

After that you need attacking wingers I suppose who get to the byline, or perhaps even take on defenders and take the ball in to the box for easier crosses. When this is happening you also need everyone on the team save the defense attacking the box for the cross.

And finally, you need to win the ball early and take advantage of numerically defficient defenses. If Nesta is dribbling for some reason, I want my attackers to win that ball, and then take on the other defender with the numerical advantage. With this I think winning balls in the other team's half needs to be selected, and counter attack as well.

The players are extremely important then, as creativity could be the most important stat for every player along with passing and stamina.

I haven't started making this tactic yet, but I will in a few days, but if anyone who is perhaps more familiar with Total Football has anything to add about the formation in general, or about how to adapt it to FM, please share.

 

[Rocky]

youll need some damn good DM's too to cover for the centre-backs when they make forward runs. i would say, to get an attcking centre-back, tick forward runs in the player instructions screen, pretty obvious and in team instructions on defensive line, put the meter until "Push Up", but not all the way. this seems like a pretty good idea ShiftyPowers, im gonna get crackin on this

 

[ShiftyPowers]

I think the toughest thing is going to be trying to get the midfielders to cover for defenders, and not getting raped on the counter attack.

 

[ngyc]

i doubt we can have total football in FM. since we can't instruct a midfield to cover center back position when he is joining the attack. i have this idea quite a long time ago but until now i still have no idea how to implement it.

the only thing i can do is play something like "arsenal football". do simple passing, score a simple goal after a great team work build up. here is my formation

my team instruction screeshot

is important to set "normal" in forward run for full back or else will concede quite a lot of goals.

this tactics works well for me so far. the only problems is i still not statisfied with my defend record. i still have to work out how to apply good setting on center back. any good suggestion?

 

[ShiftyPowers]

What's funny is that is the exact tactic I use with my Bayern team right now except my striker doesn't have an arrow back and insead of 3 in the MC spot I have one of each DMC, MC, AMC. I don't play offside either.

I use more width on the field, use more mixed passes, close down all over the field, and keep my defensive line back pretty far. Good formation though. It's not really Total Football though, My DCs and DMCs don't ever get involved in the attack.

Also I suppose it would all be zonal marking in Total Football.

 

[AhmedK]

I made a total football tactic in CM03/04 with Ajax. I think to make this tactic work,60% of it is balancing outplayer types+skill, 10% is the instructions and the last 30% is team morale(you will find you later).

Ajax:

Cech

Smith
Villareal
Dawson
O'Brien

C.Ronaldo(mr--->AMR)
Van Persie(robben)(ML--->AML)

Vaart(amc)


Mido(FL)

Tsigalko(FC)

Toledo(FR)
-----------------

First thing is morale, the team(i feel anyway) needs to confident enough to go all out attack like this, I tried this same tactic,with these same players at Liverpool after winning every possible trophy I could with Ajax, 3 seasons in a row non the less, from my first to my last. To say the least, it was murder, I was being raped 7-0 by the exact same teams I had just raped the season before in the CL, no new transfers, it may aswell have been Ajax in liverpool kits, but it did not make a damn diff as we got raped anyway. This was not one game, but I almost got relegated with this tactic. Which is why I think it is going to be hard to do this in any other league but holland, the league is small enough that you could be king of the league with ease, but big enough to get you an automatic spot in the CL.

now to the players:



Cech(a great GK is the foundation, he was the best in CM03/04 and you could trust him to make one on one saves if you get caught on the counter. I found the team wavered a bit when he was not in goal, even against small teams. In FM I would imagine you would need someone like Cassilas or Buffon, or someone with sim stats.)


Defence(They all had great attacking stats, better than some mids I have seen in the lesser dutch sides, you could trust them to get past a mid or two before making a great cross and stil have the speed and stamina to get back on D)


-------

this is where balancing player types out comes in handy

-------

C.Ronaldo- just the player you were talking about Shifty, very confident and creative, he would run circles around defenders before crossing it onto Mido or Tsigalko or taking a shot from the top of the box


Vaart- Freerole and captain- another confidence boost for the team. Another player who can dribble, but he does not hold the ball as long as ronaldo, it always seemed like he knew when to dribble and when to make an amazing through ball to Toledo or Dawson, where ronaldo would often run



Van Persie/Robben- they would almost never run with the ball and not because I told them not to. I really feel these guys would be the hardest to fin again in FM. They always, always,always made simple passes that broke the D. Like a little chip of the defenders head to mido who would then dribble and cross to Toledo.


Mido- everything you want in a target man, only he has great crosses and can dribble, which is why he was way out on the left
Tsigalko- one of the two target men, would score 4 or 5 goals a game, even against teams like Miland and Arsenal. Great finishing
Toledo-like ronaldo only up higher and a lot faster with better better shots and finishing



Because this is as close as I have ever gotten anyway.

 

[ngyc]

What's funny is that is the exact tactic I use with my Bayern team right now except my striker doesn't have an arrow back and insead of 3 in the MC spot I have one of each DMC, MC, AMC. I don't play offside either.

I use more width on the field, use more mixed passes, close down all over the field, and keep my defensive line back pretty far. Good formation though. It's not really Total Football though, My DCs and DMCs don't ever get involved in the attack.

Also I suppose it would all be zonal marking in Total Football.

i wish to play man marking and often closing down but i just get f.ck up everytime i try to do so. can you show me how to configure CB and team instruction if i wish to play this kind of tactic?

 

[Parra Power]

i am unable to make attacking-minded tactics like that.... this thread is just totally alien to me


IMO the first thing you do when taking over a team is get a good gk and two quality centre backs (high heading, pace, positioning).... anyone can score a goal given chances - put your goalkeeper up there and he'll get a few - but if you're not conceding then the minimum result is a draw

 

[Zlatan]

Hmm well ever since I play CM/FM I always tried to play total football the way Ajax and Holland did back in the early seventies. But I always conceed much goals with that so I mix it up a little and I came on this 4-2-1-2-1 that can switch to an attacking 4-3-3 and a rather defensive 4-3-2-1. I'll try and put in a screenie later.

 

[PSVFOREVER]

I suck at letting my team play attacking football.

I always get owned by other teams, but still manage to score 1 or 2 from a counter, and I dont concede 1, so I win.

Does playing offside work for you? I feel it is always 1 defender who screws up, which leaves big gaps for their strikers.

 

[ngyc]

Does playing offside work for you? I feel it is always 1 defender who screws up, which leaves big gaps for their strikers.

sometimes it happen to me as well i will give it a try not to play offside

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Yeah I don't play offside either. If I have 2 good center backs, why not just keep them behind the strikers and not risk a bad offside trap.

I'm going to give Total Football a run with Barcelona because I think they probably have the best Cruyff (Ronaldinho) plus good defenders like Puyol and Marquez and then also Eto'o, Xavi, etc.

 

[Fernandez]

I am alien with tactic changing. I basically use my personal 11 tactics that I created with different teams and try to get players to work with the tactic.

 

[The Kop Kid]

I suck at letting my team play attacking football.

I always get owned by other teams, but still manage to score 1 or 2 from a counter, and I dont concede 1, so I win.

Does playing offside work for you? I feel it is always 1 defender who screws up, which leaves big gaps for their strikers.

The wandering centre back has often been a problem for me regardless of the offside trap. I'm pretty sure that Carra used to nip down to the pub mid-game.

 

[Tom]

great thread i must say.

Total Football is interesting, its always been pretty much the holy grail of Football Manager's all over the world, but its so bloody hard to do in real life, and hard to do in the game too. I'll have a crack at some sort of tactic... personally id go for 3 at the back and pack the midfield, because we all know how much FM is biased towards that part of the tactic. Hence that's what ill go for, i shall also be controlling Barcelona just for the hell of it.

Tom's 3-6-1TotalFootballBaby! Tactic

dont all laugh at once, let me explain. The idea is that with the formation in full swing, it should leave a covering DC at the back, with a DMC infront of him to protect against oncoming attacks. Healthy and fit wingbacks are the most important feature of the team, while the DMC can cover partially, they still need to get back and fill the gaps when needed. The other two MC's will plug the main gap in midfield, commanding the field with a wide array of passing abilities. The AMC is the creator, the one who will get into the free space, he will make the move on the striker, but can also fall back if one of the MC's goes forward, effectivley; he is in a free role. The SC's position is to hold up the ball and enable other players to get forward to help him, like a 4-5-1 striker does, ala Andy Johnson. Once other players are around then Total Football should be at it's best: SC, AMC + 1 other MC attacking the penalty area, both wing backs attacking each corner of the penalty area with the ability to charge into the box OR to cross the ball, then the covering DLC and DRC cover the gaps left in midfield by the 3 MC's that have departed, at the half way line these can easily fall back into position if the attack breaks down, allowing the DMC to step back into an MC role.

-

right, let me explain:

Mentality - relativley attacking, probably around a 13/14 (Ruud? am i right?), Total Football was never all out attack, it is structured to allow everyone to get forward in due time, with people flooding the open gaps that the defence leaves, often via the defence wrongly assigning people to man marking. Think of it in American Football terms, the problem with putting everyone on man marking is that the Half back or the Tight End can run into free space; it's exactly the same with football. Hence we dont want our players to get too far up the pitch, which is really what mentality on FM stands for, we want them to move slowly up, but not in a 'hung-ho' fashion. This leads neatly onto my next point.

Creative Freedom - Like i say, this isn't going to be 20 for the whole team, Total Football is again, NOT about this. Sure the front men should be trying the special stuff and the 2 MC's and 2 DMR/L's should be trying to force a situation, but the rest of the team shouldnt. Especially the SC, DMC and DC. What i mean is we dont want the whole team going for whatever pass/run they want, we want them to flow neatly into the positions we have assigned and the play the way the team requires them to.

Passing Style - It kind of goes without saying that Total Football should really base itself around a short passing technique. Again the idea being that short, possession like football allows players to find their position and launch a worthwhile attack against the opposition. Also, with many people upfield we dont want someone to launch it only to find it's coming back again with 2 people in defence.

Tempo - unchanged, we dont want to hurry things along, but we dont want to go at a Rotherham-like pace

Width - Due to the expansive amount of players we want in the last 3rd of the pitch, we need the width to be high for these players, by packing the centre of midfield with many players this will still allow us some leway. Width is a classic hallmark of Total Football too.

Closing Down - I'm a tad unsure on this one, but im pretty sure from everything ive seen/played to do with football in real life, Totaly football tends to close down the other team in pincer like movements, i.e. from all sides. Again the idea being that if you close someone down then one of the 3 MC's should fill into the gap that has been lost. It makes perfect sense and Arsenal/Valencia did it succesfully throughout 2003-4. However tiredness could become a major problem if im not careful here.

Defensive Line - This wont matter that much, since i should be able to alter things during the individual instructions to effect this, but really FM considers the D-line to be the 3 DC's, not the 2 DMR's. Therefore we want the D-line to be pretty high, since we want to encourage the DRC and DLC to move forward, using the mentality function the DC should be able to stay back (as shown later on)

Tackling - Nothing out of the ordinary.

Use Target Man - The jury is still out as to how much FM takes this into account, but ill leave it on for now.

Marking - Zonal - There is no other way to say it, Total Football uses zonal marking, it cannot use man marking; thats the whole point. The person closes down anyone very quickly who enters their 'zone', if they then lead into a dangerous person the defender stays with them for a bit, while an MC steps into to fill the gap. Ideally it uses zonal marking, with a pinch of man marking if a situation gets very dangerous.

-----------

Ok now im going to go through each induvidual position instructions and say what kind of attributes are probably needed.

DC (right or left) - Carles Puyol/Fernando Navarro

Ok then, this goes for the two DC's running into midfield. Mentality is normal because the overiding arrows quite simply tells them where to go. Creative Freedom is little because we want them to distribute the ball over short distances to the creative MC's, a bit like 2 Makalele's would do. Closing down is less because we want them to fall back if there is an attack. Tackling is Hard.. just because it's Puyol and Navarro

Primary attributes here are really; tackling, positioning, anticipation, stamina, passing, teamwork. Marking isn't quite as important. Obviously because they are part of a 3 man defence, they need to be good at the actual defending side of things too!

DC (Centre) - Edmilson

Right, quite obviously we want this guy to hold back and 'sweep' up the defence, the defensive mentality will mean he will drop back a little bit from his position on the screen, which is useful, as it gives him a larger view of the field to make any moves he needs to do. He shouldnt close down a great deal, instead waiting for people to arrive to do that for him.

The DC needs to be one of the best players on the team, he needs to be an EXCELLENT defender of the ball, but he also needs to have amazing stamina and speed to make up for mistakes, technically he doesnt need to be that gifted, instead he can simply pass the ball to the DMC to get rid of it.

DM R/L - Sylvinho and Belletti

As you can see, most of the top half is the same as the team, as these positions pretty much epitomise what im going for with the whole formation really. The main, huge difference is the marking; man marking is employed. Ive come to the conclusion that having two wing backs on man marking is probably the best option, because it allows the to use the free roles they have defensivly, as well as attackingly. This allows all 3 DC's to concentrate on zonal marking with a further MC providing protection.

Main attributes here are Stamina 20 Natural Fitness 20 Marking 20, but you didnt really need to know that did you


***
continued below, apparently i had too many images in the post..

 

[Tom]

continued...
***

MC (Defensive) - Rafael Marquez

Ok the idea here is that we want him to sit further behind the midfield, however, we dont want such a big increase that it actually warrants us to change his position to DMC, we simply want him to move into that massive gap once an attack is underway, like Makalele does for Chelsea, but possibly even more defensivley. That's why ive picked Marquez, he is a D/DMC.

Creative freedom, passing and closing down are all quite mundane and lower than the rest of the team, this guy really is Mr. Boring, but hes the linchpin of the team.

He needs to be an amazingly good player, able to hold up the ball and distribute it well. Influence, Positioning, Teamwork, Passing, Stamina, Work Rate should all be 17+.

MC (Right Centre and Left centre) - Deco and Guily

This is where the formation could very well fall apart, and it will need some work over time im guessing. Idealy i want to tell them if one goes forward, then the other fills the gap he has left, but FM wont allow me to do it. Hence im going to experiment by giving them both free roles (I live in hope)

Important attributes for this position need to be the technical/mental ones, for once these players dont need amazing stamina.

AMC - Ronaldinho

Right, this person is the free man in the tactic, he really can do whatever he wants so its up to the players induvidual creativity to think stuff up, hence Ronaldinho is pefection. He needs to make insightful runs, sharp passes, clever shots. This player HAS to be in a free role.

Creativity 20 Technique 20 a must have, determination and work rate 15+ too.

SC - Larsson

Needs to hold up the ball, little creativity infront of goal, apart from when he gets a chance

Needs to be a very physical striker with good finishing, doesnt need to be an Henry like player. Jumping/Heading is a must have.

-----

Right, im not actually bothering with the set peices for now, cos they arent too relative to the formation at the minute. I need to see what this will look like in an actual game, prepare for mark 2, because this thing could fail miserably

TROD.

 

[Rob]

Total Football ain't my kind of tactic to employ. I love the idea of it but I just don't think the Total Football of the 70s doesn't apply as well to modern football and in FM2005.

I prefer to make tactics that don't conceed goals but after reading Mourinho's book, I must say his theory on "Dominace" and "Control" are superb. I made a few tactics on this idea of his and I am dominating with it.

 

[JTNY]

"vomit" At Last Statement!

 

[Tom]

first match wasnt too good but mainly because it's too attacking and maquez wouldnt stay in his place. Next game..

TROD.

 

[Tom]

right, the tactic doesnt work away from home, because the AI automatically closes you down too much. But it isnt conceding much which is good, we'll see what it can do at home.

TROD.