2018 world cup bid

[Bobby]

Maybe I'm desensitized to commercial stuff but I'd rather it be paid for privately than out of the public coffers so I'm totally fine with that.

 

[Mandieta6]

lol, yes! actually, since NM only have one stadium, I'd say dump 'em ... announce that Toyota Stadium (Frisco) will be expanded, and call it Texas 2022 ...

Don't you have anything to say about the issue at hand, Qatar's bid?

 

[Alex]

Maybe I'm desensitized to commercial stuff but I'd rather it be paid for privately than out of the public coffers so I'm totally fine with that.

That's commercial...Not overly commercial.

 

[Xifio]

the US tends to adopt a Go Big or Go Home attitude to most of its activities ... so if something is going to be commercial, it's going to be overly so ...

 

[Mandieta6]

Why are you ignoring me, Xifio? Do you always ignore people when you're proven wrong? Is that your strategy to avoid looking stupid? I seem to remember you abandoning several arguments in this manner.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IN REGARDS TO QATAR'S WORLD CUP BID AS WELL AS THE ALLEGATIONS AND CRITICISM MADE IN THIS THREAD, XIFIO?

 

[Xifio]

not sure what you mean by proven wrong? I talked about legacy, and they will have one, regardless of whether it will be positive or negative ...

let's not pretend every prosperous nation wasn't/isn't built on slave labour ... if a nation has the capacity to host a World Cup at a moment's notice, it's a luxury built on the backs of hundreds of thousands of slaves who gave their lives ... no prosperous nation has any moral high ground on the issue ...

 

[Xifio]

and looking through the thread, I'm surprised you are even interested in "the issue at hand":

the only thing I care about regarding the stadium is the action in them.

you seem to have changed your pathetic, sorry, apathetic disposition ... why? what prompted this?

 

[Mandieta6]

Haha, such a bullshit excuse. Legacy can be good or bad, sure. As if that's what you meant when you discussed 'redefining Middle Eastern sport' and all that jazz.

Also, what? Do you have any figures showing a thousand-high death toll due to the construction of sports stadia? "Oh, people die everywhere for no good reasons! It'd be prejudiced to care now." That's so weak, man. 1000 dying for any one reason, anywhere, at this day and age, is a big deal. A single death in the Gaza Strip is headline news, I wonder what a 1000 would merit. Or a 1000 deaths in the construction of the Nou Camp Nou. Give me a break.

haha, some of the negativity is hilarious ... but then again the 2022 World Cup is next week, right? if only Qatar had a decade or more to develop special policy strategies to deal with the alcohol-inclusive festival mentality that foreigners will be willing to shell out bags of cash for ...

I'd say this was wrong. Wouldn't you? Sure, you didn't SAY Qatar would pull it off, but you were mocking the surrounding skepticism.

Finally, your staunch defense of Qatar's ability to develop the technology was wrong, too.

Either way, do you not have any opinion on these developments?

 

[Mandieta6]

and looking through the thread, I'm surprised you are even interested in "the issue at hand":you seem to have changed your pathetic, sorry, apathetic disposition ... why? what prompted this?

That's a pathetic attempt at misrepresentation, as shown by your conscious decision to omit a part of my post. I was saying that since I wouldn't see the matches live, I wouldn't care about the conditions in the stadium, just the matches themselves. That still means that the playing conditions need to be up to par (since it would affect the matches) and it certainly doesn't mean I wouldn't care if the matches are moved to the winter. Seeing that one of these things is likely to occur does bother me, hence I care (although my main reason for fixating on you now is because it amuses me).

Also, my post was in response to Nady posting a video about the wonderful stadiums we were gonna get. I was saying that I don't care about how pretty they are, and I still don't and won't. But please, tell me how this disposition is pathetic.

as for bashing Qatar: please continue ... I think it's great they have a chance to prove doubters wrong ... there's a long way to go to do that; so, by all means, have your fill during that time ...

I found this when I checked out the post you quoted, though. This is wonderful.

 

[Xifio]

wonderful? lol ... people were opposed to the Qatar bid due to their über-conservative political and social views ... you pretending that it somehow included working conditions is hilarious horsesh!t ...

the technology development, as needed, has had 3 and a half years from the bid decision, and thus 8 and a half years to go ... it's stupid to suggest any conclusion is apt so prematurely ...

the rest of your trolling drivel is already addressed by this:

let's not pretend every prosperous nation wasn't/isn't built on slave labour ... if a nation has the capacity to host a World Cup at a moment's notice, it's a luxury built on the backs of hundreds of thousands of slaves who gave their lives ... no prosperous nation has any moral high ground on the issue ...

 

[Xifio]

for the benefit of non-trollers and trollers alike, to dispell some myths about the falsely sensationalized headline:

1,000 Indian workers die in World Cup host Qatar in 4 years

Almost 1,000 Indians have died in Qatar in the last four years, with over 500 workers dying in the past two- and-a-half years alone, according to an AFP report. Qatar is the host of the 2022 football World Cup.

While some human rights groups have latched on to the figure to highlight Qatar's allegedly abysmal rights record, the Indian embassy said there was nothing abnormal about it considering the large Indian community there and the fact that many of these deaths were due to natural causes.

The Indian community in Qatar is the single-largest expatriate group. According to the foreign ministry, at the end of 2012, the number of Indians there was estimated at close to 500,000, approximately 26% of Qatar's population of 1.9 million. The majority of Indians in Qatar is engaged in unskilled and semi-skilled work and belongs to low or lower-middle income groups.

The information was obtained by AFP through an RTI plea filed with the Indian embassy in Qatar. The report quoted an official of the International Trade Union Confederation as saying that the data showed an "exceptionally high mortality rate". The Indian embassy, however, said it was inappropriate to use these figures in a distorted manner, even praising Doha for taking care of the interests of Indian workers.

"Further, considering the large size of our community, the number of deaths is quite normal — 233 in 2010, 239 in 2011, 237 in 2012, 241 in 2013 and 37 in 2014. Most of the deaths are by natural causes," the embassy said.

"Qatar's human rights record is under scrutiny like never before as it cranks up building work ahead of the 2022 World Cup, most of which will be done by migrant labour from South Asia," the AFP report said. "Amnesty International said in November that workers were being treated like 'animals', and urged football's world governing body, FIFA, to press Doha to improve conditions for foreign labourers," it added.

SOURCE

 

[Mandieta6]

You just ignore everything I say that you have no response to and misrepresent the rest. I wasn't pretending the opposition to Qatar was due to worker conditions, worker conditions is just one issue. It is the issue you're fixating on because it is the one you think you have the easiest argument for. People were opposed to the Qatari bid for plenty of reasons, and the ones we're complaining about now are some of them, they weren't just political or social. Again, you're just trying to reshape what was previously said to fit your current purpose and avoid issues you want to avoid.

I never said I was looking for a conclusion, but for an opinion. The signs are indicating that they won't deliver on their promises. But you're gonna rely on 'there's still time'. Fine, we'll bring it up when there isn't any more time.

The quote you're using addresses nothing about what I said. It doesn't address you relying on stupid semantics to avoid being wrong (you're still wrong, but I hope the technicality makes you feel better). The fact that prosperous nations WERE built on slave labor is irrelevant. At this day and age, 1000 people dying for sporting reasons is ridiculous. You're legitimising those deaths by saying there have been 1000s of deaths in other places, too. OK, does that mean there shouldn't be an outcry when that happens now? Your point is stupid.

It also doesn't address my point that you're just misrepresenting what I said. I specifically asked you tell me why my stance in the post you half-quoted was pathetic, do you have a response? It seems I need to explicitly ask you to address an issue or else you avoid it.

I appreciate your source and am willing to accept that the figures require further scrutiny. That said, worker conditions is only one aspect of the issue (and as cold as it might seem, it's the one I least care about).

 

[ShiftyPowers]

the technology development, as needed, has had 3 and a half years from the bid decision, and thus 8 and a half years to go ... it's stupid to suggest any conclusion is apt so prematurely ...

They are obviously not going to come through on their technological promises as the technology still does not exist and this is why the World Cup is being moved to the fucking Winter. Plus we're now down to 8 stadiums instead of 12. 8 years out and they've already backed off nearly everything they promised. We're going to be left with a joke of World Cup in a backwater Middle Eastern dictatorship that cost thousands of lives and is in fucking winter. Legacy of the worst major sports competition host ever, perhaps.

 

[Xifio]

The fact that prosperous nations WERE built on slave labor is irrelevant.

distant past, recent past, both relevant when the fruits of any slave labour are still being enjoyed ... not, it turns out, that it applies to Qatar (recent past) as it does to the Colonials or the US (more distant past) ...

At this day and age, 1000 people dying for sporting reasons is ridiculous. You're legitimising those deaths by saying there have been 1000s of deaths in other places, too. OK, does that mean there shouldn't be an outcry when that happens now? Your point is stupid.

wow, did you even read the article? 1000 people died in 4 years, and they happened to live on a work visa in Qatar, which happens to be a World Cup host ... it had nothing to do with anything sporting reason; the story spun it as such ...

It also doesn't address my point that you're just misrepresenting what I said. I specifically asked you tell me why my stance in the post you half-quoted was pathetic, do you have a response? It seems I need to explicitly ask you to address an issue or else you avoid it.

I said apathetic ... the preceding "pathetic" was a facetious prod at your general patheticism -- though, as noted, not pertaining to your initial apathy ...

They are obviously not going to come through on their technological promises as the technology still does not exist and this is why the World Cup is being moved to the fucking Winter. Plus we're now down to 8 stadiums instead of 12. 8 years out and they've already backed off nearly everything they promised. We're going to be left with a joke of World Cup in a backwater Middle Eastern dictatorship that cost thousands of lives and is in fucking winter. Legacy of the worst major sports competition host ever, perhaps.

your view comes from an outdated stereotypical view of the region ...

if a winter World Cup is more viable, then so be it -- don't resist change ... they can always make indoor stadia instead ... if they can build an indoor ski slope in Dubai, they can build indoor football stadia in Qatar ... why isn't that Plan A? THAT is a good question ...

I'd prefer to see the region given a chance to step their game up ... if they f*ck up AND learn from it in time, then good, they leave a positive legacy ... if not, then they leave a benchmark by which the next nation wanting a chance to prove itself worthy of the opportunity must significantly surpass ...

 

[Alex]

wonderful? lol ... people were opposed to the Qatar bid due to their über-conservative political and social views ... you pretending that it somehow included working conditions is hilarious horsesh!t ...

What a load of bs. People were against a Qatar for a whole range of reasons. The fact they had to build a load of new stadia being one, and being directly related to the working conditions - especially when you throw in their medieval social views, which you eluded to above, but distanced from the issue as best you could.

the technology development, as needed, has had 3 and a half years from the bid decision, and thus 8 and a half years to go ... it's stupid to suggest any conclusion is apt so prematurely ...

Easy way out. You're really standing firm on this one? Not willing to admit that the bid was awarded based on money and false promises. The whole point is that we don't know what stadium technology will hold, how can Qatar include something in their bid that may or may not exist?? The decision will have to be made well before the 8 years is up too - in fact, these systems would have to be included in the initial construction of the stadiums, so your argument is already invalid.

 

[Mandieta6]

distant past, recent past, both relevant when the fruits of any slave labour are still being enjoyed ... not, it turns out, that it applies to Qatar (recent past) as it does to the Colonials or the US (more distant past) ...

How am I supposed to be outraged at things I was not alive to witness? The solution isn't to disregard slave labour now but to react to it always. Should the racist taunts of football players not be condemned because worse affronts have taken place in the past? Your stance is ridiculous.

wow, did you even read the article? 1000 people died in 4 years, and they happened to live on a work visa in Qatar, which happens to be a World Cup host ... it had nothing to do with anything sporting reason; the story spun it as such ...

Yes, I did, and I appreciate the fact that the story has different sides to it. While the source suggests the figures are normal, there are others that dispute this. Why should I just take your article as the voice of truth? It is just as reasonable to say that is you and your source spinning the story as mere coincidence. There are no contrasting figures in that article or any reasoning to justify their claims, either.

I said apathetic ... the preceding "pathetic" was a facetious prod at your general patheticism -- though, as noted, not pertaining to your initial apathy

Noted now. I wanted to make sure you weren't just making unsubstantiated jabs again (you were, but I won't debate 'general patheticism' with someone with your track record).

your view comes from an outdated stereotypical view of the region ...

if a winter World Cup is more viable, then so be it -- don't resist change ... they can always make indoor stadia instead ... if they can build an indoor ski slope in Dubai, they can build indoor football stadia in Qatar ... why isn't that Plan A? THAT is a good question ...

I'd prefer to see the region given a chance to step their game up ... if they f*ck up AND learn from it in time, then good, they leave a positive legacy ... if not, then they leave a benchmark by which the next nation wanting a chance to prove itself worthy of the opportunity must significantly surpass ...

'Don't resist change'. Fuck off. This isn't positive evolution, this is an inconvenience brought upon by false promises and corruption. There were other much more viable bids that were able to offer the WC experience people want. A winter WC doesn't just go against tradition. It disrupts the leagues (and would disrupt them for several seasons), is less comfortable for fans (most people get their largest share of time off at summer) and will conflict with other sports and TV coverage. Less viewers, less money, everybody loses.

It would be one thing had Qatar proposed a winter WC from the beginning and then gotten it. I wouldn't like it, obviously, but at least FIFA would be agreeing to it from the beginning. Had Qatar proposed a winter WC they wouldn't have gotten the WC.

If you order a Ferrari from a dealership and they give you a Ford Fiesta, would you resist change?

 

[Xifio]

What a load of bs. People were against a Qatar for a whole range of reasons. The fact they had to build a load of new stadia being one, and being directly related to the working conditions - especially when you throw in their medieval social views, which you eluded to above, but distanced from the issue as best you could.

I call BS on that ...

the concern over social views were/are about women, alcohol, general over-the-top punishments for crimes, etc. ...

if everyone is so up in arms about working conditions, how could they live with themselves when they know they support a sport where equipment and sponsorship comes from firms like Adidas, Nike, Puma, etc., who continue to use sweatshops?

OXFAM Sweatshop use article:
https://www.oxfam.org.au/explore/workers-rights/are-your-clothes-made-in-sweatshops/

1000 deaths at a sweatshop (as opposed to 1000 deaths in a nation, NOT at a stadium construction site):
http://www.smh.com.au/world/bangladesh-death-toll-hits-1000-20130510-2jbfe.html

You're really standing firm on this one? Not willing to admit that the bid was awarded based on money and false promises.

they volunteered to have the spotlight of the world shone on their nation, which voluntarily destroys any façade they may be keeping, pulls back the curtain on the way they work, and forces them to comply with standards established by United Nations mandate as acceptable standards of living and working conditions ... I'm standing firm on giving new regions the chance to host events of this magnitude, and deliver an amazing experience ... if you've ever been to Dubai, or to the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, you wouldn't doubt that the progressive nations of the region know how to deliver an event with unprecedented pomp and panache ...

but am I denying that the bid was awarded on money and false promises? why would I? show me a power structure where corruption doesn't exist ...

this doesn't justify their corruption ... but I'm once more calling BS, this time on people who would otherwise be willing to play ignorant and work within the system when it works out in their favour, or if it would require them to act against authority and potentially face the severe backlash on a personal level ... if you are going to say "no", I'm calling you a liar ...

How am I supposed to be outraged at things I was not alive to witness? The solution isn't to disregard slave labour now but to react to it always. Should the racist taunts of football players not be condemned because worse affronts have taken place in the past? Your stance is ridiculous.

jesus ... I talked about the moral high ground, and how no "first world" nation has it ... how did these prosperous nations become prosperous enough to already have amazing infrastructure that they don't have to build much new, but just improve?

every instance of slave-like conditions should be condemned (hence my point about enforcing change through exposure of these issues) ...

Yes, I did, and I appreciate the fact that the story has different sides to it. While the source suggests the figures are normal, there are others that dispute this. Why should I just take your article as the voice of truth? It is just as reasonable to say that is you and your source spinning the story as mere coincidence. There are no contrasting figures in that article or any reasoning to justify their claims, either.

what different sides? it's an Indian publication quoting Indian officials from the Indian embassy in Qatar relating to mortality figures of Indians in Qatar ...

you'd just prefer to believe the falsified headline because it feeds your agenda, which says more about you than it does the reality in Qatar ...

A winter WC doesn't just go against tradition. It disrupts the leagues (and would disrupt them for several seasons)

yeah, coz all leagues play at the same time ...

is less comfortable for fans (most people get their largest share of time off at summer)

ohh, if only they had a few weeks notice to forecast their vacation time ... what? they'll have a few years notice? well, whaddayaknow!

and will conflict with other sports and TV coverage. Less viewers, less money, everybody loses.

LOL! you're contradicting yourself ... if the leagues are disrupted, then they'd be running at the same time wouldn't they? but somehow it wouldn't result in less viewers or less money for them, but it would for the World Cup, which everyone will know is coming years ahead of time?

Had Qatar proposed a winter WC they wouldn't have gotten the WC.

no? then their strategy to enforce a temporary change so their region may participate in a system that would otherwise keep them out worked ... have fun complaining about it ...

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Summer is the optimal time for a World Cup because lots of people take short days and are on long vacations. It will be much harder for audiences to tune in to weekday World Cup games in the middle of January work days. There's a big difference between the occasional evening game each week (which I rarely even get to see over here anyway), which is the equivalent of something like Monday Night Football, and having games running during the workday (in a time zone ahead of you meaning it will start in the morning and run while you're at work). You can't even argue against this, FOX is already bitching loud about how they paid for a summer world cup.

 

[Xifio]

you realize that when it's summer in the northern hemisphere, it's winter in the southern, right? and vice versa? people get summer and winter holidays in the south too, you know, and they're at the opposite time to yours here in the US ...

the World Cup is a month long ... how much spill over into January, if any, are you expecting?

if FOX decide to give up their broadcasting right, it'll be cause for celebration ...

 

[ShiftyPowers]

90% of the world's population lives in the Northern hemisphere

And I'm expecting the World Cup to not be during Christmas and to start sometime around January 7th and go until February.