2018 world cup bid

[Xifio]

population in 2000? lol, ok, but even in 2022 it is / would be skewed by India and China, who aren't a usual source of World Cup tourists ...

https://www.germany.travel/media/en/pdf/dzt_marktforschung/Fazit_der_FIFA_WM_2006_PDF.pdf

https://tkp.tourism.gov.za/documents/impact of 2010 fifa world cup.pdf

there is obviously a stark contrast in travel patterns based on where in the world the event takes place ... however, the expat community in the US makes it a consistently great consumer of World Cup tickets, and for your point, that's a better argument ...

it still neglects the fact that, with so many years advance notice, and with tourism in the region spiking in their winter (as opposed to their summer) anyway, a World Cup holiday at a non-traditional time for the "Westerners" should make for a refreshing change to the established order of things ...

Jan-Feb makes more sense, purely because it won't then overlap with the Christmas "Holiday" period -- which itself is a clear indicator of a warped reality ...

and the TV broadcast based on time of day in the US is a moot point, considering on one hand the popularity of the Champions League (which faces a similar issue for live showings), and considering on the other hand how the Olympics broadcasts are handled in the US ...

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Again, the Champions League is one game usually near the end of the work day. And it's not nearly as successful as it could be because of the time. It's totally different for all the games to be played through the work day, every day, starting at like 7am. The audience is going to be a fraction of what it normally is. The summer is different because of vacations and the relaxed environment, several employers will tolerate dipping out for a few hours in the summer to catch a world cup game while they wouldn't in January.

Do you honestly think the distribution of population has changed much in the past 14 years? If anything the immigration flows north.

Finally, you have this long post on World Cup tourism which is basically nothing to do with anything. The key is how many people will watch on television, not how many will travel. There will likely be enough fans in Qatar (although possibly not), but the viewing audience will be a fraction of normal. Regardless of what you think about Fox's coverage, they are upset for a reason; they paid a Summer World Cup price to broadcast the event. They know the bidding would be much lower in the winter. Hell, just compare viewers for the Winter vs. Summer Olympics. If anything the most popular sport in any Olympics is figure skating, a winter event, yet it pales in comparison in interest and viewers.

 

[Xifio]

Champions League matches at the end of the work day? guess it's close in EST, but that's not true for the rest of the country ... anyway, totally agree that the Champions League would be exponentially more popular in the US if they were on the weekend, or in the evenings on weekdays ... that's where Olympics rebroadcasts during Prime Time may need to be a model that's considered for the States ... to be fair to Qatar, they are a centrally located nation in the world, considering geography and time zones ...

comparing Summer and Winter Olympics is silly, because the latter involves only half the countries of the former, and only a quarter as many actual participants ...

 

[Alex]

Summer is the optimal time for a World Cup because lots of people take short days and are on long vacations. It will be much harder for audiences to tune in to weekday World Cup games in the middle of January work days. There's a big difference between the occasional evening game each week (which I rarely even get to see over here anyway), which is the equivalent of something like Monday Night Football, and having games running during the workday (in a time zone ahead of you meaning it will start in the morning and run while you're at work). You can't even argue against this, FOX is already bitching loud about how they paid for a summer world cup.

It'll be in summer here

I don't necessarily think having a Northern Winter World Cup, once every ~5 World Cups is a bad thing. If 90% of the world's population is in the north, even based on them all being part of the World Cup audience would mean that 1 in 10 should be in the southern hemisphere. As China and India take up huge chunks though, 1 in 5-6 isn't such a bad thing. Surely South Americans are a key World Cup market?

My issue isn't that the World Cup necessarily should be in summer, but that when they were bidding, they continually said it would be in summer - and now they've wont he bid have changed that. It's the false promise, the deception during the bid, that I don't like.

 

[Alex]

Hell, just compare viewers for the Winter vs. Summer Olympics. If anything the most popular sport in any Olympics is figure skating, a winter event, yet it pales in comparison in interest and viewers.

I think that's a terrible terrible comparison, and I think you know that. I generally agree with you here, but I think points like that put the debate back.

Winter Olympics aren't popular because large chunks of the world don't care. That includes figure skating. There is no way figure skating is the most popular Olympic sport. You go around the world and ask people who Usain Bolt is, and then ask them to name some figure skaters...I love sport, but I can't name a single figure skater - at least not since Torvill & Dean.

 

[Mandieta6]

I call BS on that ...
OXFAM Sweatshop use article:
https://www.oxfam.org.au/explore/workers-rights/are-your-clothes-made-in-sweatshops/

1000 deaths at a sweatshop (as opposed to 1000 deaths in a nation, NOT at a stadium construction site):
http://www.smh.com.au/world/bangladesh-death-toll-hits-1000-20130510-2jbfe.html

Terrible.

jesus ... I talked about the moral high ground, and how no "first world" nation has it ... how did these prosperous nations become prosperous enough to already have amazing infrastructure that they don't have to build much new, but just improve?

That's not the point, you're trying to make this the point, but it isn't.

every instance of slave-like conditions should be condemned (hence my point about enforcing change through exposure of these issues) ...

You say this but everything else you've said on the subject is the exact opposite. Up until now you've repeatedly dismissed these reports because every other nation has had this sort of thing happening within it.

what different sides? it's an Indian publication quoting Indian officials from the Indian embassy in Qatar relating to mortality figures of Indians in Qatar ...

you'd just prefer to believe the falsified headline because it feeds your agenda, which says more about you than it does the reality in Qatar ...

Leaving aside the possibility the an indian publication quoting Indian officials from the Indian embassy might have reasons to minimise the issue (which exists). The publication states that the figures are normal while offering no contextual figures or explanation as to why these figures are normal. If I remember correctly there were two different international organisations who were making the opposite points, that these figures were not normal. That information was in the article, it didn't come from a 'falsified headline'.

You seem to be oblivious to the fact that every point you've made on this issue can easily be made about you.

yeah, coz all leagues play at the same time ...

Classic Xifio. Purposefully attempting to circumvent the issue by resorting to technicalities. Yes, there are plenty of leagues whose season won't be put on hold (note that they would still be affected though, every major international competition is held in the summer and all the leagues have adjusted to this. Even if their seasons aren't disruspted, they'd need to adjust to a new schedule which could be an inconvenience), but all the major leagues will be disrupted. You will now bring up Brazil or Argentina or similar which is just you avoiding the issue.

ohh, if only they had a few weeks notice to forecast their vacation time ... what? they'll have a few years notice? well, whaddayaknow!

Yes, because everyone gets to choose their vacation time? As Shifty pointed out it'd be much easier to watch the WC in the summer than during the winter.

LOL! you're contradicting yourself ... if the leagues are disrupted, then they'd be running at the same time wouldn't they? but somehow it wouldn't result in less viewers or less money for them, but it would for the World Cup, which everyone will know is coming years ahead of time?

Again, purposefully misinterpreting things. At least, that's what I've been thinking. Now I'm starting to think you're just dumb. I mean, I didn't say leagues, I said sports. OTHER SPORTS, as in, NOT FOOTBALL. As the article Shifty linked mentions, in the US you have the NBA and all your other silly sports and in most (European) countries the sporting season takes a break during the summer. While I'm sure that at least in Europe the WC will monopolise viewership, the total viewership will still be smaller, and thus represent less money for everyone involved. Hence why Fox are complaining. But I'm sure you know better about potential viewer ratings than the network that's gonna show the WC.

no? then their strategy to enforce a temporary change so their region may participate in a system that would otherwise keep them out worked ... have fun complaining about it ...

Yes, it did. If you thought this all along I don't know why you're arguing with us. Qatar wouldn't and shouldn't have gotten the WC is the point we're making. All we can do is hope FIFA takes it away from them.

 

[yoyo913]

You will now bring up Brazil or Argentina or similar which is just you avoiding the issue.

Argentina runs fall to spring.

 

[Xifio]

My issue isn't that the World Cup necessarily should be in summer, but that when they were bidding, they continually said it would be in summer - and now they've wont he bid have changed that. It's the false promise, the deception during the bid, that I don't like.

that's fair ... it certainly seems like they've gone with the "it's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission" approach ... what do you think are the odds that they'd have got it, had they played it straight?

 

[ShiftyPowers]

that's fair ... it certainly seems like they've gone with the "it's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission" approach ... what do you think are the odds that they'd have got it, had they played it straight?

Zero goddammit! And how can you be so cool with this? It's obviously because you said "okay, I want the World Cup to be in Qatar because I'm fucking stupid, so no matter how this is achieved it is acceptable."

 

[Alex]

that's fair ... it certainly seems like they've gone with the "it's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission" approach ... what do you think are the odds that they'd have got it, had they played it straight?

It'd have been much harder for the execs to pretend it was anything but a bribe that won it for them, that's a certainty.

 

[Xifio]

that's fair ... it certainly seems like they've gone with the "it's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission" approach ... what do you think are the odds that they'd have got it, had they played it straight?

It'd have been much harder for the execs to pretend it was anything but a bribe that won it for them, that's a certainty.

shame that that's what it took for Qatar to persuade the powers that be to shake up the established order and get a crack at hosting ... but apart from Blatter, people like Platini, Beckenbauer, etc. have publicly backed the Qatar bid and the move to a winter World Cup, so this corruption must run deep ...

how can you be so cool with this?

the opposition to Qatar hosting at a more condusive time of the year in their region points to a classic "Western"/white nations entitlement argument ... frankly, entitlement, and an insistence that others bow to the established order, is even more disgusting to see ...

I certainly want more regions of the world get the chance to host a World Cup ... if Qatar weren't going to win it by proposing a winter World Cup from the off, then should they have caved in and given up?

now, what about all this technology development bullcrap they spewed? like I said, if an indoor ski slope (with an adjacent snow park in the same enclosed space) can be constructed and maintained in the Middle East, then building stadia to have a regulated internal temperature would be a piece of piss ... but it's certainly cheaper to have a winter World Cup instead, and better for visiting tourists ... if this was always their plan, then it's a shame they've had to go through all this farce ...

 

[Sir Didier Drogba]

It's nothing to do with western entitlement, it's to do with fitting in with the league schedules of where the players that everyone wants to see play.

 

[Alex]

shame that that's what it took for Qatar to persuade the powers that be to shake up the established order and get a crack at hosting ... but apart from Blatter, people like Platini, Beckenbauer, etc. have publicly backed the Qatar bid and the move to a winter World Cup, so this corruption must run deep ...

It had nothing to do with that. Australia certainly isn't a "power-that-be" in football, they're far from it. But their bid was much, much more worthy than Qatar's. Better stadiums, more than one city, much stronger sporting background etc. It made sense. The Qatar bid didn't make sense. You can lie about your beliefs all you want, but Qatar weren't given the World Cup due to being the strongest bid - it's as simple as that. Giving it to Australia wouldn't have been "giving it to the powers that be". It still would have been a very different World Cup, but in a way that I'm sure 99% of fans would have been happier with.

 

[Alex]

It's nothing to do with western entitlement, it's to do with fitting in with the league schedules of where the players that everyone wants to see play.

This is a major point. The players will be coming from these major leagues, regardless of who will be watching. The players are paying the players their week to week wage, it has to be partly a business decision - it's a professional sport.

That said, as I mentioned before, I'm not necessarily anti-winter World Cup. Not every World Cup, but every now and then it wouldn't hurt - there are players and fans from other leagues who have to take a break because of the World Cup. The point is, that this isn't what they bidded for. This decision should have been made separately, not bceause of the winning bid.

 

[Xifio]

It's nothing to do with western entitlement, it's to do with fitting in with the league schedules of where the players that everyone wants to see play.

I don't disagree that the European leagues are awesome and are what everyone watches ... but if that structure is constantly fed to, over and above the best interest of other regions, then it is indeed a case of bowing to the established order who feel entitled to their leagues' interests being protected ...

It had nothing to do with that. Australia certainly isn't a "power-that-be" in football, they're far from it. But their bid was much, much more worthy than Qatar's. Better stadiums, more than one city, much stronger sporting background etc. It made sense. The Qatar bid didn't make sense. You can lie about your beliefs all you want, but Qatar weren't given the World Cup due to being the strongest bid - it's as simple as that. Giving it to Australia wouldn't have been "giving it to the powers that be". It still would have been a very different World Cup, but in a way that I'm sure 99% of fans would have been happier with.

I'd have been just as happy to see Oz win the hosting rights for the same reason as Qatar, and said as much back when the announcement was imminent ...

 

[Arnau]

Adama Traore is going to win that World Cup for Catalonia

 

[ShiftyPowers]

LOL at white western entitlement. Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

BTW, the MLS schedule accommodates a winter World Cup quite well, but I guess American soccer fans are privileged through Europeans, or something.

 

[Bobby]

Loads of Central and South American leagues would get totally screwed by a (northern) winter World Cup.

The World Cup has always been in Summer, that's when most of the players featuring in it have time off. What happens if a club's star goes off to this thing in December and gets Carlos*ed up? They're going to sue the shit out of FIFA.

I tend to fall on the side of the clubs in every club vs. country argument. They are the ones paying and training the players, after all.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

And the World Cup is for 1 month every 4 years. The club season is 9 months every year. I always fall on the club side too.

 

[Alex]

And the World Cup is for 1 month every 4 years. The club season is 9 months every year. I always fall on the club side too.

Isn't that more reason why the World Cup should take precedence? It's at the very least a counter argument. Surely once every 4 years it doesn't hurt to rearrange the major league schedules to suit...loads of other leagues have to do it with the summer schedule. Just because they're minor on a world scale, doesn't mean they're not effected